Tibet: A View from the Top of the World, with Lobsang Sangay

HR McMaster: America and other free and open societies face crucial challenges and opportunities abroad that affect security and prosperity at home. This is a series of conversations with guests who bring deep understanding of today's battlegrounds and creative ideas about how to compete, overcome challenges, capitalize on opportunities, and secure a better future.

I am H.R.McMaster. This is Battlegrounds.

Presenter: On today's episode of Battlegrounds, our focus is on the region of Tibet. Our guest is Lobsang Sangay, the former Sikyong, or prime minister in exile of the Central Tibetan administration from 2011 to 2021. Prior to this role, Sange was an academic at Harvard Law School, where he organized multiple conferences between Tibetan, western and chinese scholars, which included the Dalai Lama.

He was selected as one of the Asia Society's Asia 21 fellows in 2007. Sange holds Doctor of Juridical Science and Master of Law's degree from Harvard Law School and a Bachelor of Laws degree from the University of Delhi. He served as senior visiting fellow at Harvard Law School's East Asian Legal Studies program.

In fall 2023, King Namri Songston united the central Tibetan states into an empire in the early 7th century, until conflict with Tibet's buddhist leaders fractured the kingdom in the 9th through 11th centuries. Buddhism spread throughout the western part of East Asia in the centuries that followed, and mongol invaders placed the Sakyalama, or buddhist spiritual leader, in charge of a relatively autonomous Tibet.

In the 13th century, Tibet regained effective independence after the chinese Ming dynasty drove the Mongols out of Tibet in the 14th century. By the mid 16th century, the resurgent Mongols invaded tibetan territory and reestablished influence over Tibet. In the late 16th century, Mongol leader Altan Khandhe made Sonomgiazo, who was the great master of the Gelug sect and the third Dalai Lama the preeminent religious leader of Tibet.

Tibet was strategically important territory, including to Mongol and Manchu factions in China for the following two centuries. British forces invaded Tibet in the winter of 1903 as part of efforts to shore up british positions in Central Asia relative to Russia. In the aftermath of the british seizure of southern Tibet, the Dalai Lama fled to inner China.

Two years later, Britain and China signed a treaty granting chinese sovereignty over Tibet, which the Chinese enforced militarily until the fall of the Qing dynasty in 1911 prompted Tibetans to expel the remaining chinese soldiers. The Dalai Lama returned to Tibet in 1912, and the Tibetan people established an independent government that lasted for decades.

In 1950, communist chinese troops invaded Tibet, and in 1951, the tibetan government signed the 17 point agreement to make Tibet an autonomous region of China. China's religious suppression in Tibet created civil unrest and conflict, forcing the Dalai Lama and 80,000 other Tibetans to flee to India in 1959.

Mao Zedong's cultural Revolution continued to destroy Tibetan religious and cultural institutions in the 1960s and seventies, but it largely subsided following Mao Zedong's death in 1976. Subsequently, Deng Xiaoping allowed negotiations with the Tibetan government in exile, which mainly failed, and chinese repression of tibetan citizens intensified in the following decades.

Civil unrest in response to chinese forcible subjugation of Tibet, including during the 2008 Beijing Summer Olympic Games, heightened international attention concerning the plight of the Tibetan people. After 2008, the PRC pursued an aggressive program of sinicizing ethnic minorities, including in Xinjiang and Mongolia. The PRC tightened its grip on Tibet due in part to Beijing's insatiable appetite for critical minerals reserves.

Until 2011, the 14th Dalai Lama led the tibetan government in exile, the central tibetan administration, which is headquartered in Dharamshala, India. That year, the Dalai Lama relinquished his political power over the central tibetan administration and Lab Sang Sengay took over as Sikyong. The United States recognizes the Tibet autonomous region as part of the People's Republic of China, but it has called on China to respect tibetan religious freedoms and civil rights.

In 2020, the United States Congress passed the Tibetan Policy and Support act of 2020. Emphasized the Dalai Lama's religious power to appoint his successor, promised sanctions against chinese interference in that process, and called for an American consulate in Lhasa, the capital of the Tibetan Autonomous Region. We meet with Lobsang Sangay soon after President Joe Biden signed into law the bipartisan promoting a resolution to the Tibetan China Dispute act.

Which is meant to counter the chinese government's disinformation campaign against Tibetans, condemn Beijing's human rights violations towards the tibetan people, and promote negotiations between the Dalai Lama and the PRC. We discuss China's repression of the Tibetan people, efforts to advocate for freedom and rule of law, and prospects for the future in Tibet and in East Asia.

HR McMaster: Prime Minister Lob Sangay, welcome to Battlegrounds. Hey, let me begin by saying what an honor it is to have you here. You've been a courageous advocate for freedom and democracy, and I know that you have my respect, and I'm sure the respect of all of our viewers.

Welcome to Battlegrounds.

Lobsang Sangay: Thank you, HR, for inviting me to the battlegrounds, and it's a real privilege to be on your show.

HR McMaster: Well, you have such a unique perspective. I mean, you ran a government in exile for ten years. You've been studying authoritarian regimes, opposition to authoritarian regimes, the establishment of governments in exile for 15 years, working on a book.

Could you share with our viewers the challenges that governments in exile, like the central Tibetan administration face and ways that you can advance your interests from a government in exile? And what lessons do you have for, for other opposition movements?

Lobsang Sangay: Thank you. I spent 15 years doing academic research on comparative government exile and case study of being the Tibetan government exile.

I just thought, wish I should understand about Tibetan government exile by doing comparative studies. And then I actually ran Tibetan government exile for ten years. And after coming back to Harvard, I have to reflect a bit. And I felt that perhaps if I could turn my dissertation into a book with my colleague, then it could be helpful for other exile movements because I have interacted with many and they all go through same challenges, number one being who's your host country?

Host country can determine, help or cripple dominate science. And then the in fighting, the challenge, disunity and caused by, again, the trauma. It's not necessarily their fault, right. And then the instigation, intimidation, cooperation. Adaptation, assassination, divide and rule by the authoritarian regimes or the dictatorial regimes, right? And funding issue, how much funding you can get internationally will determine again the function and efficacy of your organization or your exiled community, right?

And how much you can raise domestically, right? When it comes to funding, again, there's issue of corruption, right? And then some of the governments exile have failed because of corruption. And then functionally, how you define democracy from Robert Dahl to Engel Hud or all the giants. Essentially the conventional definition is no state, no democracy, no territory, no democracy.

But then you are an exile, you don't have territory, you don't have a state. And how can you define democracy in a new way, right? So when you say an exile movement, unity, single leadership, single voice is very important because you have one voice and one leader and unity.

But then when you say democracy, instead of unity, there has to be diversity, instead of single leader, there has opposition parties, instead of a single voice, there has a freedom of speech. So there's a philosophical contradiction between the two. So that's how you come up with a new definition of democracy that is applicable to exiled communities.

Why I say exiled communities is in the last 30 years there has been decline or what they call backsliding of democracy, but then increase the funding for democracy. And then in the last 30 years, there has been increase of funding for election reform, billions of dollars we are talking about.

And then those who, organizations, individuals, consultants who are engaged in this election reform or democrat reform are multiplied by like thousand folds. Yet democracy is backsliding and election is not functioning well. And what is the reason? And then here I make the argument that exile community, because they have been the victims of autocratic and dictatorial regimes, will be the perfect, the strongest agent to bring democracy back home.

To do that, they must practice democracy while in exile. So that essentially is my argument.

HR McMaster: Well, it's a really important argument and it affects, as you've mentioned, really how we understand democracy. And I think we have a great colleague and friend of ours, mutual friend of ours, Larry diamond, who's worked on democracy for a long time.

So I think that your scholarship is going to help, I think, evolve that school of thinking. But also, as you're mentioning, how you deliver assistance in democracy promotion. And love Sang, I'm just gonna say, I mean, this is a huge problem, right? There are 124 million refugees, 35 million political refugees.

And could you talk more maybe about the human dimension of this you mentioned it, right? You mentioned how people can become disillusioned. And what I wonder is how you restore a sense of agency among people who may be so frustrated and traumatized?

Lobsang Sangay: When I finished my doctoral dissertation in 2004, I did write this, a crisis of democracy and hopeful exile community could contribute.

This is 2004, this is like, again, our common friend Fukuyama of freedom Stanford wrote this book, end of history, and everybody said, no, democracy is thriving everywhere. Lot of time we don't see this democratic backsliding. What are you talking about? Why are you writing this dissertation? So I wrote that at that time, if I'm not wrong, they used, as per UNHCR, around 24 million refugees, people displaced people, of which 9 million were refugees, right, political refugees.

Now, as you mentioned, there's 130 plus million refugees and then almost 30 million political refugees, displaced people. So you can clearly see in the last 20 years that refugees have increased by more than 100 million. And then the political refugees increased by two or three or four times now.

So this is a serious problem, these dictators, the autocratic regimes are suppressing and denying freedom so much that people are forced to go into exile. And it becomes a global problem with all these refugees around. So while in exile, often, disunity is one of the reasons, there are several other reasons, right, one.

And then I, till now, even I used to think, why? And people blame ourselves, right, we just don't get along. Even the funders and the supporters say, why don't you get along? All you need to do is unite and remove Maduro or Assad or challenge Xi Jinping, right?

So unity is kind of, it's just a common sense. But then people don't understand is that they are coming from different parts of their own countries, strangers coming together, right? And they're different personalities. And primary reason why there's disunity is because they went through a trauma. They lost their country, they lost their homes, families, everybody.

And once you go through this trauma, now, many psychiatrists and psychologists who study this. They say that people who go through trauma are more emotional, less rational, more stubborn than reasonable, because they see world in black and white. There is dictator, I lost my freedom, I must fight for my freedom, right?

And then I have to work hard to make this possible. So in that context, you must understand, the blame for disunity is partly because of dictators and autocratic regimes and also the funders. So we have so many funders, when they fund ten different organizations of, let's say, Venezuela or Hong Kong or Chinese dissidents, what do you expect?

Ten different organizations with ten different leaders speaking ten different voices and having ten different events. So if you fund one organization primarily and give limited funding to other organizations, even through funding, you can bring exiled communities in a bigger platform, stronger platform. So there are like three ways why there is kind of trauma and disunity among exiled communities.

HR McMaster: This is really important because you're pointing out that there are very practical policy implications for your observations about disunity and the delivery of assistance. And I think this gets to your observation on the definition of democracy. Where we tend to think of it as pluralistic and many different groups.

But of course, for authoritarian regimes, they don't have to be that strong, really, they just have to be stronger than any organized opposition. So can you share some other ways that you would foster unity and try to strengthen a movement in exile?

Lobsang Sangay: When we define democracy generally, when we define freedom of speech, we define terms of absoluteness, right?

So you can say whatever you want, you can do whatever you want. That is essentially the definition of freedom of speech in America. Now, again, I'm a student of democracy and freedom of speech. So I might veering into some controversial area. Having said that, let's say a small example.

In America, you can wear American flag any way you want, you can wear as a t-shirt or a short, Short or a socks, and you can burn American flag, the freedom of speech covers it, right? But now for Tibetan, if you say, hey, you can make a Tibetan flag as your shorts and socks, that's like sacrilegious because for us, we are fighting for our nation and freedom, and flag is sacred, right?

So we can't accept that. So that's why I'm sure, because you're in exile, you lost your country, your dignity is being challenged here, and there are certain symbols that you cannot compromise. So it's one example where freedom of speech defined in America might not be applicable in other countries, especially in certain exile communities.

So we must understand that, right? A common friend, Larry Diamond, I made a presentation, Stanford, he was in presence as well, I said the same thing. All of you study democracy assumes state and territory, but then if you go with that definition of democracy and advise exiled communities, this is how democracy define in America.

This is what you should practice in exile. They will say it's not applicable to us. They need a different definition of democracy, which is unique because all these ten challenges that they face is like a do or die kind of situation. In America you can afford to have one president elected, and after four years, you can change the president.

But in exile, you get a wrong leader, wrong movement, your exile movement or government will collapse, and it will take long time ever to come back. And then, the autocratic leaders will exploit the freedom of speech in your community to create divide and rule. More voices, more differences, more division, the better.

So they use co-optation, they buy you off, they silence you, and then they divide you. So divide and rule is their main strategy and then they murder you as well, right? From Russia, there's so many examples, China, there's so many examples where they essentially murder you. They use all these tactics, so we should be aware of all this reality and take into context and define democracy coming with a strategy which is unique but very effective in challenging autocratic system.

HR McMaster: These are really important points. And I'm thinking of the work that Leopoldo Lopez is doing in the World Liberty Congress and some of the tremendous guests that we've had from Iran, Mongolia, Venezuela, and China. Could you maybe talk more about these mechanisms of authoritarian control? What are the Tibetan people encountering now?

I'm thinking of some of these heinous practices like the colonial boarding schools and the degree to which penetration into everybody's home with their phone, which is kind of their little CCP minder that they have to carry around with them all the time. And of course, what they've done to subvert Tibetan Buddhism.

I mean, could you share the experience of the Tibetan people and how the Chinese Communist Party is subjugating the Tibetan people?

Lobsang Sangay: Yeah, these are very good questions. So, I think it's comparable to other exiled communities as well, what Tibetans are going through. So there is internal repression, external repression, and transnational repression now, right?

So internally, you're right, 1 million Tibetan students, children from nomadic and farming areas are forced to send to boarding schools where they are taught about communist doctrine, not Buddhism, right? Chinese culture, not Tibetan culture.

HR McMaster: We're talking about six year olds, right, 6 year old-

Lobsang Sangay: Six year old, Seven years old, yeah, from kindergarten all the way to high school, so they are forced, otherwise the incentives are taken away.

Tibet has 6 million population, when you take 1 million children from their families and force them into boarding school and salute to Mao Zedong and Xi Jinping and insult and protest against Dalai Lama and religious leaders. I mean, young child, you are trying to brainwash them into making them think they are Chinese, and not just Chinese, they are Chinese, not Tibetan, but their superior civilization as to inferior Tibetan civilization and then more advanced values, which is Chinese values, to backward values.

So that's how they try to indoctrinate and try to influence. Having said that, I do believe Tibetan civilization is very old. Tibetan identity is very rich, and Tibetan sense of pride and nationalism is also very strong. So I don't think they will succeed but that's how they are trying.

Now monastically, they are shutting down even the private schools run by monasteries just to teach Tibetan language and culture. So I came across a data where In Lhasa, the capital city of Tibet, 93% of the publication and printing press that publishes books and articles and journals take place in Chinese language.

93%, can you imagine, when population in Tibet is Tibetan. So that's how they try to influence Tibetans inside Tibet. Now, externally, what they do is, for example, if I want to go to Tibet, I have zero chance. I'm banned from going to Tibet, or any of my family members or any Tibetan.

You must be sponsored by a Communist Party member in Tibet, full fledged communist party member in Tibet. You don't get that sponsorship, you are denied visa. So what it does is that if you go to Tibet, because of a favor by a Communist Party member, and that person will control you, even you are American citizen in America, because that person will have all the data and facts about all your relatives and family members back home.

And whatever you do or say will impact all your cousins, not just your siblings, and then your promotion, jobs, even go to school, anything. That's how they control.

HR McMaster: They control your life choices is the way Stephen Kotkin says it here, right?

Lobsang Sangay: Yes, and when you apply for visa, if you go to Chinese embassy, they will say, so do you go participate in protests?

If you say yes, you are denied visa. So do you contribute? We have this freedom tax to be an identity book, which is 96 or $100 a year. If you pay that, you are denied visa. So they go through this checklist just to deter you, intimidate you, and to overwhelm you into not doing anything when it comes to exile movement, and then make you hostage even while you are in exile.

So this intimidation that they use is very common. For example, is it October, November, I was giving a talk at Cornell, so I had late evening flight. As I landed at Ithaca airport, there was one Chinese person speaking Tibetan, few words. He greeted me and he said, I'm a big fan of yours, I would take a selfie and all that.

I said, okay, we took a selfie. Then I went to give a talk the next day, he was there in the auditorium taking video. And then we had a dinner with faculty members at a restaurant. Within the campus, he was there with a Chinese student. Now, most surprisingly, early morning, I had like 07:30 a.m flight or something.

So I was there at the airport at 6:30, and he was right there at the gate of my flight. You know, then I, when I saw him at the talk and the dinner, and I suspected he was sent by Chinese embassy, so, and then at the gate, I said, hey, now, you took my selfie yesterday, and now I want to take selfie with you today.

And then he ran away, so what they're trying to do, I mean, they literally track you, your flights and literally wait you outside the gate when on your arrival and then at your departure.

HR McMaster: And this is happening in the United States, right? It's happening all over the world these, these illegal police stations that the CCP set up.

And Lobsang, I don't know if you've seen this at Harvard, but this China Chinese students and scholars association, which is a front for the Ministry of State Security, this is China's spy agency to keep tabs on students. I mean, I think every university president should vow to insulate their campus from that kind of intimidation.

Can you tell our viewers more about the experiences that you've seen of chinese students and others who are intimidated by the Chinese Communist Party abroad?

Lobsang Sangay: Now, I was giving a talk at University of Toronto when I was holding my official position, 50 Chinese students came with the Chinese flag and started singing national anthem outside the auditorium.

And surprisingly, I was giving a talk at a law school in South Africa, Cape Town, it's a private university. And then they announced it and what happened? Hundred plus migrant laborers hired by Chinese embassy and 30 plus Chinese people came, stormed the auditorium, climb on the stage with big banners, and then essentially drowned out and chased away the audience.

Right? So I had to speak at an alternate classroom where maybe half the people came. And now in America, they tried to intimidate you by holding protests outside. But in South Africa, they were holding protests inside the auditorium and then shouting slogans and making sure that there are no attendees.

So, and then the Chinese embassy issued a press release about my visit and Lithuania also, they issued a press release. So I have encountered several you are a general and fought many wars but when it comes to political activism, I have had small battles with these protesters as well I'm quite used to it.

HR McMaster: We have a colleague, Stephen Cockett, I mentioned already, who studies Stalin, and from his study of Stalin, he has concluded that authoritarian regimes really need five things to stay in power. They need cash flow, they need security forces, they need choices to control your life choices which we've been talking about.

They need stories to tell their people, right? To create this narrative that everybody's out to get you, but the Chinese Communist Party, or whatever it is, is gonna protect you and make your life better. And then finally, they need an international system that's benign, that doesn't challenge their authoritarian rule.

Could you maybe talk about what you think are some of the critical initiatives, efforts that could be made to weaken authoritarian regime's grip on people and their ability to stifle human freedom?

Lobsang Sangay: You mentioned there were international organizations of the 15 UN agencies, last I checked, four or five are headed by Chinese officials.

Of the remaining ten, I think either the senior director or the vice chairman of are Chinese. Now, after America, China has become the second largest donor third is Japan, and Japan used to second. Now when they donate, it's like in a quick pro quo it's conditional, so we give this much money to this agency, but we demand that head of the agency be our person.

So there's this huge. The UN agriculture related agency approved all kinds of fertilizer and chemicals to be used in African countries because these were the countries where agriculture products were exported to China and they didn't care about the erosion of soil. And after two years of using that kind of fertilizer, that soil will be useless for three or four years.

What happened to these farmers? Their income, right? But then the UN agency is approving that fertilizer to be used in that country. And then you find that head of agency is Chinese and the export of the agriculture product goes to China, and that's how they use it. Right?

So we should be very aware of how international agencies are infiltrated, and then misused by Chinese government and in collaboration with other communities as well. For example, the UNHCR, the UN Human Rights Commission came out with a report saying that there is crime against humanity in Uyghur region.

And it's a fact, America says so, Canada says so even UN Human Rights Commission came out with the report. And then this was table to pass a resolution at the UN General assembly. Only 51 countries voted with Uyghur more than 150 countries didn't vote with Uyghur. Can you imagine?

UN Human Rights Commission is saying there is crime against humanity. Support this, and 150 countries don't agree with you and don't support you. So that means even the UN bodies are very much compromised and weakened by China and other countries.

HR McMaster: Yeah, love saying it's even worse, I guess, when you consider China's allies.

For example, Russia is now the chair of the rotating chair of the Human Rights Council, for example. And I wonder also if you might comment on how to advocate within international organizations. I think that oftentimes people think there's just a prize for membership if you're a member of international organization.

But as you're pointing out, they're really a battleground in the cells, a contested space. And China's been very, very successful in promoting its authoritarian model and its mercantile statist economic model in various international forum.

Lobsang Sangay: Yeah, I mean, you're right and it's a fact that there are more non democratic countries in the world than democratic countries.

Right? In that sense, we are losing so, and then yes China has allies. All these autocratic non democrat is what they say is, look, we will not tell you how you run your government. And no matter what kind of corruption, repression you have, as long as we have this business deals, we give you a loan with high interest and then you can't pay back.

We take the ownership of your seaport or airports and all kinds of even agricultural land. Right? So that's their strategy and then unfortunately, it seems to be working. So we have to use, I think, all international forums, including United Nations Human Rights Commission, I know on the one hand it's an uphill battle.

They have the majority. If the chair is a Russian kind of representative, what do you expect from rights commission? Having said that, we must use every forum possible and maximize the time, and then speak out. So that's the only way we can fight. So at the public discourse, private discourse, and then coordination and collaboration with like minded countries.

Don't go alone, take as many countries as possible with you and speak in unison, otherwise, Chinese government, again, Russia also, they divide and rule, right? So fewer representation there, fewer voices are there for freedom and democracy, good for them. So I think coordination is very, very important, and then we should keep pushing back at every international forums.

HR McMaster: No love saying, just, I think, about two months ago, Congress passed the Promoting a Resolution to the China Dispute Act. It calls, I think for resolving the dispute, and I think the languages in connection with international law, including the UN charter. And highlights the distinct Tibetan religious, cultural, and linguistic, and historical identity, what China is actually trying to extinguish.

And what it accuses, the Act, accuses China, rightly, accurately of violating international legal obligations by denying the rights of Tibetans to self-determination. And President Biden recently signed that Act, but when he signed it, he issued what I think is kind of a weak statement that diluted the impact of the law.

Could you maybe give us your assessment of the Act and the president's letter? And what more can America do to advocate for the rights of the Tibetan people?

Lobsang Sangay: I was in India when the bill was passed, I think, and then the US Congressional delegation was also there.

I really welcome the Act passed by the Congress. As you rightly said, it talks about, one that China claims Tibet has always been part of China since ancient times is wrong. And based on international law, Tibetans are entitled to have self-determination. And then US government is for negotiation between Dalai Lama, or it's representative and the Chinese government.

So there be a mutually agreeable solution. So this was, as far as negotiation is concerned, this was mentioned in previous Act's as well. The historical part was very new, so we all were very excited. But then when it was signed, Daily said that this Act does not change the fact that Tibet autonomous region and Tibetan areas of China.

He already acknowledged Tibet autonomous region and Tibetan areas as China of China is part of PRC. So we were very excited about the historical part, and that was very much diluted with the statement of the president, right? Having said that, we really appreciate what the US Congress has done.

We really appreciate the American government continued support for negotiation to resolve the issue of Tibet, and their support, yes. But to see that historical part being taken away and to recognize that Tibet autonomous region and Tibetan areas of China is part of PRC that defeated the historical element of the Congress Act.

So that I think many Tibetans have expressed their apprehension and disappointment.

HR McMaster: I think it stems from this idea that we should manage the relationship with China instead of win the competition with the Chinese Communist Party. Which is actively undermining your sovereignty, our sovereignty through its various programs from Belt and Road, and the Global Development Initiative, and the Global Security Initiative, and the Global Civilization Initiative, right?

I agree with you that we should certainly stop trying to qualify these kind of statements.

Lobsang Sangay: If I may, I want to acknowledge, because you are part of the previous administration, Tibetan Policy and Support Act of 2020 was clearly passed in 2020, right? And in that Act, I think we got everything what we wanted, right?

When it comes to the Tibet being very important from environmental point of view, natural resources point of view, reincarnation of Dalai Lama is very important. It is for Dalai Lama to decide and no one else, and to set up and American consulate in Lhasa and funding, including Tibetan government exile.

And my office was acknowledged in that law and it was signed by president without any condition, or his own opinion statement. So we are very appreciative of that Act. And then Tibetans in general have really welcomed that Act inside and outside Tibet. The historical part was not dealt with at that time, and so this time the historical part was dealt with, yes.

HR McMaster: Lavsank, could you maybe share with our viewers your assessment of the general geopolitical situation? Of course, really, Tibetan had right in the center of a lot of conflict. Obviously, the internal efforts by the CCP to suppress the Tibetan people. You have this genocidal campaign against the Uyghurs in East Turkestan, Xinjiang.

You've had the border dispute between India and China, the bludgeoning of Indian soldiers to death on the Himalayan Frontier. And more broadly, you have what seems to me to be the emergence of an axis of aggressors who are engaged in what we might view as cascading crises from Europe to the Middle East, and these looming crises in the Indo Pacific.

How do you see the world today? How concerned are you about these geostrategic trends that we're witnessing?

Lobsang Sangay: Yeah, it's quite disturbing, obviously, the now great power rivalry is on and China wants to be number one, they have already said so. In 2049, at the 100th anniversary of Communist Party of China, they want to be number one in the world militarily, politically, economically.

They want to be the numero uno as when it comes to superpower, so hence, it's bound to have conflicts. But I just want to touch on, like you said, how important Tibet is or the Dalai Lama is. For example, in the Tibetan Policy Support Act, reincarnation of Dalai Lama is clearly defined and said it is for the Dalai Lama to decide and no one else.

Now, imagine, okay, how important that is, whole of Himalayan belt of India, they largely follow Dalai Lama as their spiritual leader, then up North it's all Tibet, right? So they follow Dalai Lama as the leader. Then up North of Tibet is inner Mongolia, it touches inner Mongolia, a large number of Mongolians follow Dalai Lama.

And then up North of inner Mongolia is outer Mongolia, or Mongolia, again, there They follow Dalai Lama, and up north of Mongolia is Buryat and Tuba, two republics of Russia, they also follow Dalai Lama. So can you imagine, from all the way to the Himalayan region, to Tibet, to inner Mongolia, outer Mongolia, to Russian republics, right?

And then on the east side of Tibet, or the south side of Tibet, or the east side of India, is Burma, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, all Buddhists, and further down, Singapore, South Korea, and then Japan. So when talking about Buddhism, you can clearly see the huge territory of that area and many of the countries, Southeast Asia, they follow Buddhism as a religion.

So Tibet sits right in the middle when it comes to geography, territory, and then most importantly, water. Tibet is the source of major rivers for Asia. Of the ten major rivers of Asia, six flow from Tibet, Yangtze and Yalu river, cradle of Chinese civilization, right, lifeline for China.

That's where 90% of Han Chinese people live, between Yalu river and Yangtze river. And rest of these, 60% of territory of China belong to Tibetans and Uyghurs and Mongolians and Manchurians, and other, quote unquote, minorities. It was always 40%. And then Brahmaputra river, lifeline for Bangladesh and northeast of India, Mekong river, we all read about Vietnam war and Mekong river, it starts from Tibet.

And then Irrawaddy river. And then on this side of Pakistan India, Indus river, Satluj river, all flow from Tibet. So Tibet is the roof of the world, and compared to the Antarctic, when the ice of the Antarctic melts, it goes to ocean, becomes salt water, not drinkable. When the glaciers of Tibet melt, it becomes streams and rivers, drinkable.

So, hence, it impacts 1.4 billion people in that part of the world. So China sits on top of the roof, which controls the flow of rivers. So that's why it's so important. And then from natural resources point of view, you just name it, uranium, gold, copper, lithium, 70% of lithium reserve of China is in Tibet.

So you can clearly see, so geopolitical speaking, geographically speaking, and from resources point of view, again, which has strategic implication, Tibet is very rich.

HR McMaster: It is such a critical place from a cultural perspective, or religious perspective as you've mentioned, from a resource perspective, and we have kind of limited visibility into what's going on these days.

For example, we closed the consulate in China's Chengdu region, and so I think Americans have a hard time understanding what's really happening in Tibet. How do you stay connected? How do you get around China's great firewall to remain connected to the Tibetan people? Can you share some of what you're doing to tell Tibet's story to the world?

To make sure Tibetans are not forgotten, and also to reach back into Tibet with real information, information that's not controlled and manipulated by the Chinese Communist Party.

Lobsang Sangay: On the one hand, China has created this firewall, and 99% of Tibetan people in Tibet are denied passport to travel.

Even those who had passports were taken away now. So they are really shutting down Tibetans movement, because more they move out means more information and more reality about Tibet will be shared outside, and the criticism against Chinese government will increase. And then every kinds of firewall, media firewall, Internet shutdown, all these are taking place in Tibet.

And then the check posts and high tech ID being issued, so each time you swipe it, your movement is strike. So all that is taking place. Having said that, 30% of exiled Tibetan population were born and brought up in Tibet in 80s and 90s and fled to India.

So they still communicate with their families back home. A lot of challenges, a lot of intimidation, a lot of listening going on. So that's how we get our information. Now, most importantly, they essentially shut down the border between Nepal and Tibet. So normally, thousands of Tibetans used to flee from Tibet through Nepal to India.

So that is shut down. So Chinese government is doing everything possible to shut down physically and technologically, so that we don't have access. But fortunately, we still have 30% of exiled Tibetans who were born in 80s and 90s and fled to India, and through them, we get information.

HR McMaster: This is really illuminating. Could you maybe tell our viewers, just to kinda, maybe we can end on a lighter note, what they might know about the rich Tibetan culture, the tenets of Tibetan Buddhism, and what they might read or follow to learn more about Tibet.

Lobsang Sangay: The general public, you mean to say, right?

HR McMaster: General public, yes, right.

Lobsang Sangay: I think His Holiness often quotes him, a great scholar of Nalanda called Shantideva, and he said, if you cannot solve the problem, why worry about it, if you cannot solve the problem, what is the point of worrying about it? So if you can solve the problem, you should not worry.

If you cannot solve the problem, what is the point of worrying about it, right? So the world, the challenges that we are facing, we must make efforts. So on the one hand, we should worry, yes, but then work more, work harder to bring changes and maintain equanimity. Because eight empires collapsed in 20th century, right?

In 21st century also, some of these evil autocratic regimes, they come and they go. And Buddhism notion of impermanence, one who's born has to die, all these dictators will die, anyways, one day, right, and the good guys will win ultimately. So democracy will prevail. So we all must make efforts and don't get overwhelmed, intimidated by, my goodness, there are more undemocratic countries than democratic countries, there are less freedom.

Which are all true. But you must face it with Shantideva's quote, and keep marching forward to make this world a better place, more democratic, more freedom. That's where we are marching towards. And we will prevail.

HR McMaster: Lobsang Sangay, I can't think of a better note to end this on, but I do want to just ask you one final question.

Is there anything else you wanna share with our viewers, maybe about the CTA's goals and objectives, and anything you'd like to impart?

Lobsang Sangay: I think we started with that. I would like to say CTA or the Tibetan government exile is the most functioning, effective government exile there is.

And I would urge all the exile communities, yes, I'm giving many workshops to exile communities now, that they should study this and then replicate it, which would be good, because we, the Tibetans, have been in exile for 60 years now. We are the elder brother, so to speak, of all the exiled communities.

And we have faced so many obstacles and challenges along the way, and through the visionary leadership of His Holiness Dalai Lama, and with the support of Tibetan people, we have created something which is in exile, but a democratic, functioning government and a movement. And we would urge other exiled communities and those who study democracy to study this, and then share it with others and encourage others to follow suit.

HR McMaster: Lobsang Sangay, thank you for joining us, and on behalf of the Hoover Institution, I just wanna tell you how much we admire your courage, your determination, and appreciate you sharing your invaluable perspective with our viewers on Battlegrounds. Thank you so much.

Lobsang Sangay: Thank you, HR, for your great initiative in this battlegrounds and liberty games, and hope you a great success.

And then through your project and our collaboration, we will see more democracy and freedom around the world.

HR McMaster: Thank you, Lobsang.

Presenter: Battlegrounds is a production of the Hoover Institution, where we generate and promote ideas advancing freedom. For more information about our work, to hear more of our podcasts, or view our video content, please visit hoover.org.