The Mission Of Tzipi Hotovely

>> Andrew Roberts: Ambassador Ziki Hotovelli is a former israeli deputy minister for foreign affairs and has been the ambassador to London since 2020. Ambassador, you're a former deputy minister for foreign affairs of Israel. You've been ambassador to London since 2020. Can you. And of course, a Likud member of the Knesset since 2009.

Can you tell me where we are with the war on Gaza at the moment? We hear about Khan Yunis being that the IDF have pulled back from there. We know that the government is committed to attacking Hamas in Rafa. Can you give us an update on where we are today?

 

>> Tzipi Hotovely: Yes, well, the main thing that we are busy today is to make sure we'll make the maximum to bring our hostages back. As you know, there are over 130 Israelis in the hands of Hamas. Innocent men, women, and babies. And at the moment, the government finished to negotiate and to deliver the last offer, the Americans are putting massive pressure on Hamas to agree to a deal.

And we are all praying that we'll see our beloved hostages back home. By the way, two of them are british. We have Emily Damari and Adav Hupulpal that are both British citizens, and they're supposed to be in the hearts of all of us. So we are thinking about the women that are going through horrible abuse, and we're thinking about the elderly people that we just saw videos being released showing signs of life.

And just think about the numbers. We're negotiating about 30 people. So it's clear many of them are not alive. So this is the responsibility of Hamas to causing the horrible death of those innocent people. I'm afraid this is where we stand. So Israel is waiting to Hamas answer on the hostages deal, and it's like an open wound in the hearts of all of us.

 

>> Andrew Roberts: Hamas claim sometimes they don't know exactly where some of them are, that they're in the hands of other organizations, that they don't know how many are still alive. I take it for granted that that's not true, but am I right?

>> Tzipi Hotovely: Well, first of all, to begin with, this is their responsibility.

They committed the worst war crime ever by the horrible atrocities of October 7. Honestly, I never believed that I will see in my lifetime things that reminded me the Holocaust stories. And I remember reading one of your articles, why Hamas is worse than the Nazis. And in a way, I had this discussion.

My husband is a grandson of a Holocaust survivor, and we actually had this type of discussion whether they are worse than the Nazis, which is something very radical to say. And we were speaking about the fact they were shamelessly publishing their horrible, horrible crimes, as opposed to the Nazis that were trying to hide it from the world.

And they were just documenting for their own private needs as an organization. And this is something I think the world never seen, those GoPros going from one house to another. At the embassy, one of the things we did was to invite many journalists, and we showed that in Parliament as well, the raw footage of Hamas.

And I asked many people what was the thing in those raw footages that shocked them more than anything. So they kept on answering the same answer. So different people answered me the same answer. They said, the cheerful expression on their face, this happiness, this joy, the fact they did that, happily going back to Gaza, celebrating their horrible crimes.

I think this type of ideology was not seen in such a brutal, barbaric way since the nazi regime. And this is why I think we're all so shocked from the 7th of October atrocity. So just going back to your question, obviously they're in charge of the people they took in captivity, and no excuses can be made about it.

So if you're taking young children and Holocaust survivors, this is a war crime. You need to bring them back and release them.

>> Andrew Roberts: In a recent survey of over 1000 british Muslims, 24% said that they didn't believe that rape and murder had taken place on the 7 October.

What can be done? Considering, as you say, there's GoPro evidence against that being the case, what can possibly be done to persuade them that it did happen? Or do you think that it's just an irreducible minimum? And frankly, they will just say this, even though in their hearts of hearts they know perfectly well that rape and murder did indeed take place on a huge scale on the 7th of October.

 

>> Tzipi Hotovely: First of all, you're definitely raising here a big concern about the fact we live in a post truth world. It's horrific. The fact that some things can be documented and Israel can be blamed in ridiculous things like creating AI images. So we live in a world where no one believes anymore to anything.

And I think this is part of the problem. And one of the things we learn from, again, from experiencing the history of our people, is you need to bear witness. And once you believe it, you need to share it with others. And this is why it was so important for us to outreach to significant leaders in the country and definitely for journalists that this is their duty to report the truth.

And we wanted them to be convinced of what happened at the 7 October and to see it almost using their own eyes from the eyes of the terrorists. And I think that as many people watch this rogue footage and as many people are exposed to that, this is better.

So more people will be a witness and witnessing this reality that Israel faced at the 7th of October. And I believe that some people will always deny the truth. And some people don't mind spreading lies as well, especially when it's about Israel.

>> Andrew Roberts: Why are UNRWA and the Red Cross, various NGO's in Gaza so profoundly anti-Israel?

Is there a, is there anything that Israel can do about it? Is there a root cause for it? What's your sense, especially with regard to UNRWA?

>> Tzipi Hotovely: So actually UNRWA is very important for me to discuss with you, because to begin with, it was organization that has zero justification to be separate than the regular UNHCR, which is the regular refugee organization of the UN.

So the fact that UNRWA was established just to make sure the palestinian refugees will never, never be resettled, but actually will continue to be refugees generation after generation, this is something unique in the history of refugees around the world. So think about different countries. And by the way, there is a good example of korean people that were definitely part of the regular rules of the UN.

They were resettled, so they were all getting themselves a new place. The wars, as you know, more than anyone else, created a situation that many people around the world were displaced. Sometimes people forget the reason those Palestinians were displaced to begin with is because they refused the partition plan of the UN.

They're the one who attacked Israel. They could have lived peacefully with Arab state next to a Jewish state. That was the UN basic idea of separation between the two populations. Didn't get along, but they never accepted the idea of a jewish state in any borders. And this is how the conflict continued.

One of the things I think today, people are trying to think about UNRWA as humanitarian organization. This is a huge mistake. UNRWA is nothing to do to, I mean, it does has the UN letters. But besides of that, if you look deeply and to analyze the organization, we gave intelligence file to the foreign office in Britain that describes that 2000 workers, it's almost 20% of the workers of UNRWA are members of Hamas.

Can you imagine a humanitarian organization that 20% of it are belonging by their identity to a terror organization? This is so ridiculous. So I think that the fact that UNRWA is also in charge of, I believe that they were in charge of the most radicalization education for those Palestinian children.

The international community never interfered in the content of those international schools. At the same schools, they were spreading hatred, teaching about Jews as monkeys. Some of those textbooks have a horrible demonization of the Jewish people. And the Munich massacre terrorists were at UNWRA schools graduates. So we go long time back about how strong this bad education was going.

So we need today, if you ask me, and if you ask the state of Israel, we need to replace UNRWA. We cannot reform UNRWA.

>> Andrew Roberts: And didn't you identify some members of UNRWA that actually physically took part in the 7th of October massacres anyway? I mean, actually, they were doing it themselves.

 

>> Tzipi Hotovely: Yes, so there were dozens of terrorists actively UNRWA members that were committing the crimes. But one of the things this intelligence file proven is that even if you look deeply into the organization and you make sure that those people will be put into trial and for murder and the horrible things they did, you still left with 2000 people that are part of Hamas.

So you cannot really have a functioning organization that so many people affiliate to a terror organization. This is why we believe that UNRWA was born in a sin. And the sin is they never meant to give solution to the Palestinians. They were just trying to make sure the conflicts will go on forever.

And this is why I'm so worried about this type of thinking that UNRWA can be reformed and it's just some rotten apples. Those are not some rotten apples. This is the whole organization mindset that is radical, that is against Israel, that is spreading hatred, that is almost like school for terrorism.

 

>> Andrew Roberts: And you say that you handed over this document, this report to the Foreign Office. What has the British Foreign Office done about it?

>> Tzipi Hotovely: So first of all, I must say the British government been very supportive and I was very, very proud when the British government was one of the first government to stop.

And basically after it was founded that some of the UNRWA workers were taking part in this horrible massacre of the 7 October. They just stopped sponsoring the organization, but they need to go through our review. And unfortunately, some of the European countries are now bringing back the budget to UNRWA.

But I believe it's not the way to go. So I really hope the british government will understand there are some alternatives to delivering humanitarian aid. And as you know, Israel delivers massive humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip. Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think in the past there was ever a country that delivered humanitarian aid and delivered access to humanitarian aid to entity that was basically their enemy.

So I think this is unique, what Israel is doing.

>> Andrew Roberts: Yeah, historically, it's usually exactly the opposite way around. We in the first world war, for example, deliberately starved the german population into surrender by blockading the german ports for four years. As you say, it's an extraordinary thing whereby there's considered to be a moral duty that you have to give them food, water, electricity, humanitarian aid, and so on.

But as you say, yes, this is a new departure in history, shall we say?

>> Tzipi Hotovely: Yes, and again, this is part of the way we believe that we don't want to harm innocent people. We just want to make sure Hamas won't control the Gaza Strip.

>> Andrew Roberts: Of course.

Tell me, you famously gave a speech at the London School of Economics in November 2021 in which many of us were profoundly shocked at the violent demonstration against you and the way that the whole thing unraveled. And especially, of course, when the police said that they were going to undertake no investigation about it, and neither would the LSE.

Since then, of course, recently, and indeed, as I speak, in places like Leeds University, Nottingham, Edinburgh, University College London and so on, there have been sit-ins and demonstrations and so on. What do you see as the way that this is going? Do you get a sense, as many of us do, that university authorities are being pathetically wet in not sending down students that wind up essentially terrifying jewish students?

Or do you think that this is something that will just pass? Or do you think that we're going to be going down the american route?

>> Tzipi Hotovely: Well, unfortunately, I'm afraid. I'm not optimistic unless serious measures will be taken. So when you see this type of behavior that basically is terrifying Jewish students all around the country, you should start being worried about whether your academic centers are doing their job.

And their job is freedom of speech, freedom of thought, and no country in the world should be treated like Israel, definitely not a democracy. So one of the things I always like to say to students when eventually I come to those students, I went to Oxford Union and Cambridge Union, and LSE was actually the lecture itself.

You know, it was a good lecture because the students were engaging. What was happening outside created this horrible footages of me being attacked and my car being attacked. But I was telling those students, I said, can you imagine another country in the world, even countries that are not democracies, countries that have horrible regimes, countries that violate human rights as part of their system, that their leaders or their ambassadors being treated like this?

And the answer is no. I'm probably the only ambassador needs over 100 policemen to secure my lecture in Oxford. Can you imagine this number? So I have my security team that goes with me almost the level of the senior politicians in your country. And then above of all this, you have the local security and the local policeman needs to secure my lecture.

And this is only because I'm coming to engage and to have open dialogue with the students, very open minded to all their questions and their criticism about Israel. But this is unbelievable. So I believe it's a combination of ignorance. Many times, the questions I've been asked are based on no knowledge.

So people, most of the time, they think, like the jewish people, doesn't belong to the land of Israel, which is really not knowing the facts. Or to deny the rights of a jewish state to exist, like, as if there are no other national countries in the world that are nation states, like many other countries in the world that consider themselves as nation states.

This is something unique to Israel. So I believe it's a double standard, that some of it based on ignorance.

>> Andrew Roberts: Huge ignorance, and obviously concentration a lot on the settler myth. The idea that you were inserted into that part of the Middle east by empires, as a settler force that was going to sort of do its bidding.

It's quite extraordinary, the lack of historical understanding and knowledge that can create such an idea. And yet it is very powerful, it seems, also with the people who are demonstrating every single Saturday here in London. We had the terrible site only a week ago of a policeman saying to someone wearing the kipper that he was openly Jewish and therefore couldn't have walk down the street.

The phrase openly jewish is a shocking one. What do you feel about these protests? They've now been going on for every single Saturday since even before the IDF went into Gaza. It's tremendously expensive. Needless say, it's cost over 30 million pounds from the police budget. What do you see as the future with regard to these weekly protests in central London?

 

>> Tzipi Hotovely: So I think a moment that I think we all were shocked, that was when the Big Ben was having this calling for genocide of Israel by this projection, from the river to the sea. And I think many people are trying to reduce what it really means. And if you open the map and you realize the geography of the region, you understand that if from the river to the sea, Palestine is free, from Jews, and this is what they mean.

It doesn't leave the Jewish state any place to exist, and it's calling the genocide of the Jewish state. So if you're asking me, that was a watershed moment, that also there was the speech that Prime Minister Sunak gave in front of Number 10, and he was saying that it's clear that some different steps should be taken about those type of demonstrations.

So what I'm bothered about, I don't mind people again demonstrating, I'm coming from a democratic country. Believe me, Israel knows everything about demonstrations. My country was another consistent demonstration in the last year. But I think the problem is the fact they're mixing things like calling for jihad, which has a very clear message about violence.

The fact that some of those protesters are using Hamas symbols and they're using the Hamas ribbons, which is a terror organization who's recognized in this country. They're using symbols from the Nukhba attack on the innocent villages and towns of Israel, the 7th of October. So altogether, I think the messaging is very violent.

And they're not calling for peace, they're not calling for coexistence. They're basically calling for eradication of the Jewish state.

>> Andrew Roberts: And do you think they've led to an increase in anti-Semitic incidents here in Britain? I mean, I know that they have gone up some 400% according to the community security trust, but do you think that there is a link between the demonstrations and the anti semitic incidents that take place beyond them?

 

>> Tzipi Hotovely: There is a link, and there is a connection, and I'm very much friendly with the people in this community, the jewish people in this community. It's an incredible jewish community, and many, many people don't feel as comfortable as they used to feel. And the young generation, I think this is where most people feel the difference, doesn't feel secure in universities.

What type of future do you think Jewish community will have when their young people won't feel comfortable to go to British university? Doesn't make sense. So I've been hearing so many students complaining about verbal attacks, about vandalism. Many, many symbolic acts of vandalism that are, like, coloring in blood colors, blaming Israel for committing a genocide when Israel was the victim of attempt of a genocide.

Hamas came with a genocidal ideology, and it's based in their charter. It comes all the way from their leaders, and it goes even to the regular spokesperson that came to television, British television, and was saying, we'll commit 7th of October again and again and again. So this is the genocide organization that we're dealing with.

And this is victim blaming. Time after time, Israel is the victim of a vicious attack, and they keep on blaming the victim. And we cannot ignore the old anti-Semitism that is hided there.

>> Andrew Roberts: Ava Cameron has said that a two state solution is impossible while Hamas believes in a no Israel solution.

But what are the kind of security guarantees that Israel could possibly have if there were a two states in that part of the Middle east? And why would Israel ever trust them? One looks at Ukraine, Ukraine in 1994, where both Britain and America gave guarantees to Ukraine, neither of which turned out to be worth the paper they were written on 30 years later.

And what's your sense about these security guarantees? I mean, who would actually, if there were a Palestinian state, what would happen if its police force started to arm itself with heavy weaponry? Who would step in? The United nations? The Americans? How could it possibly work?

>> Tzipi Hotovely: So to begin with, every offer of Israel to have a negotiation on any type of arrangement and definitely on the two state solution always was rejected by the Palestinians.

So the problem was always the fact that they wanted, and I think their leader said it out loud and clear, they wanted the right of return, which means basically that they belong to the state of Israel in all parts. When Hamas was speaking about occupation, it was speaking about occupying Israel as occupier in all the land of Israel.

So for them, there is only one map possible, which is the map of the state of Israel at whole. So they don't really see any way to divide the country. So I think what many Israelis realize, that when Palestinians are talking about occupation, they're speaking about 1948, they're not speaking about 1967.

So going back to your question, to begin with, there is no palestinian leadership that is willing to negotiate with Israel. I think this is the heart of the problem. I think Israel achieved peace in the past with Egypt, with Jordan, and the Abraham Accords, which is something that we're all very proud of with the Gulf countries.

And I think the basic idea behind it is whether you're one of those forces in the Middle east, want to move forward into modernity. And to cooperate and to believe in a global world, regional forces should cooperate together, or you go into the radicalism that Iran represents. And I believe that the Palestinian needs to choose side, and as long as their education.

And you asked me about books, and one of the books I really, really enjoyed reading lately was a book of an American Scholar. He wrote a book called Upheaval. So it's about how nations change themselves. And he was speaking about the de-radicalization process of Nazi Germany. So it's not something so obvious that a country like Germany turned to be one of your friends, right?

So now British and Germans can be together. And I think the heart of the change was the fact they were putting the Nazis on trials, so Germans were judging Germans for their crimes. And the education system was totally different, and Japan was going through the same process. So if you can have this type of change in the palestinian society, and they will start recognizing the right of the jewish people to have their own state, I think we can discuss many options for future peace.

But you cannot have it as long as they deny the right of a jewish state to exist, and they deny the direct negotiation route. So I totally agree with you that it's very dangerous just to speak in slogans. You need to get to the heart of the problem, which is the ideology that is denying the right of the jewish state to exist.

 

>> Andrew Roberts: Where are we with the Abraham Accords? I mean, they're all in place, aren't they? What are your relation with trying to extend them? What are your relations with Saudi Arabia like, for example?

>> Tzipi Hotovely: So we want to move forward with Saudi Arabia. I believe that the attack was chosen to be at the time it happened because we were very close to sign a deal.

On a personal level, I want to tell you that my. Maybe the most moving moment I had as an ambassador was when we had a Hanukkah party for all the ambassadors of the Abraham Accords. And we all were lighting the Menorah, the Hanukkiah, which is the biggest Jewish symbol of Jewish sovereignty in Israel.

Lighting together the lights from three different capitals and we became friends. And this human friendship was something I couldn't imagine a few years ago. And I'm the first Israeli ambassador that has these friendships because the ambassadors before me were before the Abraham Accords were signed. So I'm very friendly with the UAE, Bahrain, and Morocco ambassadors, and I think they're wonderful, amazing people.

We even did a football tournament, and we were all playing together. The Bahrainian won. We didn't do that well in the football match, but the friendship, again, behind it was unbelievable. So the embassy's team were doing this football match. It was really incredible. So I believe that the future goes to this direction, heads this direction.

I believe Saudi Arabia will eventually be part of this accords. And what are Israeli Egyptian relations like? More complicated because we earned in the gulf countries the people to people warmth and love that people from Israel travel to the gulf countries. I'm afraid it's not as warm. The egyptian street still has lots of criticism on Israel, even though we are so many years after the peace agreement was signed by Menachem Begin and Sadat.

So I'm afraid there is still more to build on the peace. But the cooperation between us and the Egyptians is very strong. And I do believe we all share the same concern about the biggest enemy in the region, who's Iran, who attacked Israel two weeks ago, a direct attack coming thousands of miles away.

So this is something that, again, many people didn't believe that will happen, that the shadow war will turn to be a frontal war. And if you're asking me what's our biggest challenge today, and we need to see that Iran is still the major terror expert there in the region by sponsoring all those proxies.

And by basically turning the place into the most destable time because of Hezbollah and what he's doing. And Hamas that we saw, that the Hamas terrorists were trained with Iranian weapons. And we found so many Iranian rockets and weapons in the hands of Hamas. So we need to remember that, I think, because this is a threat to the UK as well.

 

>> Andrew Roberts: And of course the Houthis, who are supplied by.

>> Tzipi Hotovely: That's another proxy.

>> Andrew Roberts: Yeah, nd yet it's the International Criminal Court wants Bibi Netanyahu arrested rather than anybody else, or at least it looks like it's attempting to go that way. Where are we on all of that?

 

>> Tzipi Hotovely: So I think the ICC is in a moment where it needs to decide whether it's gonna do the right thing, who's chased the real criminals of the world, or to destroy democracies. And I think that if the turn will be to hunt Democratic leaders in Democratic countries, the ICC will lose the legal background that it was built on.

It was built to make sure that the genocide for the Jewish people won't be repeated. And now he's going against the leader of the only jewish state in the world and the generals in the army that are protecting the jewish people from a genocide. I think it doesn't make sense.

So I think the ICC needs to make a moral choice here. And if they take it to the right turn, I'm afraid those international tribunals won't last, they lose their credibility.

>> Andrew Roberts: Yes, absolutely. Tell me about the Labour party here in Britain. The leader of the Labour Party, Sir Keir Starmer, seems to have been very stout and strong in defending Israels right to defend itself.

But he has got a problem on the radical left, hasnt he? Including, obviously, a by election that was won by George Galloway, who is violently anti Israel. I'm sure you hope, but do you wonder about how long this pro Israel stance will last amongst the labor leadership?

>> Tzipi Hotovely: So, first of all, as you said, the leadership of labor was standing with Israel.

Keir Starmer called me at the first week of the war and he said, I'm not gonna do politics out of it. Because this is a very clear, unprovoked attack on your country and we will support you. It's clear that as time goes by, western leaders have this tendency to lose patient.

And I'm just going back to you with a little bit of historic perspective. If that was the case for the second world war, they would have stopped after a few months and saying, okay, no more war because we're tired. So it doesn't make sense. You need to accomplish the goals of the war that everyone agrees on, which is to make sure Hamas won't control the Gaza stream.

So I do believe that Keir Starmer understands where Israel security needs are. I really hope that the Labour party as a whole will support Israel. And again, we don't know how your election will end up, but my job is to work with both parties to get the support in our wartime.

 

>> Andrew Roberts: And while we're on elections, of course, there's an important one in America as well. A lot of friends of Israel were concerned with President Trump's latest remarks about Israel, which seem to be less supportive than he has been in the past. Was he correct in saying that Bibi Netanyahu pulled out of the Soleimani operation at the last minute?

Or is the real reason of his ire the fact that Bibi congratulated Biden on his election victory in 2020?

>> Tzipi Hotovely: Honestly, I know nothing about what happened with the Soleimani decision, so I don't want to make remarks on things I don't know about. And I truly believe that the us support will remain no matter who sits in the White House.

Because you saw the big support of President Biden out of Israel, you saw the military support. And I think the most impressive moment was the moment where there was this coalition. I was very impressed to see your royal air force joins the Americans, the Jordanians, our friends in the region, the UAE, to beat the Iranian attack, to block the Iranian attack.

Massive attack that could have ended with lots of casualties, ended up with a great victory for Israel because of this coalition. So I think, again, when you see where America stands, where the UK stands, you see that there are reasonable countries around the world that understand that when Iran is using this type of aggression, it must be faced with a strong coalition.

So I believe this coalition will continue. So no matter who sits in the White House, it will be a strong alliance with Israel. Is that diplomatic enough? I must be a diplomat here.

>> Andrew Roberts: Well, I'd say you're the most straight talking diplomat I've ever spoken to, frankly, ambassador.

So, I mean, we always know that Israeli ambassadors are pretty straight talking, but that's absolutely great, thank you. Just the last question is about the idea that Israel attacked back, fought back with rockets on Isfahan, and quite right, too. Do we think now that Iran has learnt its lesson with regard to a direct attack on Israel?

Which was, as you say, a complete humiliation for them, 99% of their drones and missiles getting shot down. Or do you think this is ongoing?

>> Tzipi Hotovely: Iran is a very sophisticated enemy, it has a plan and it has nuclear ambitious. So we shouldn't be mistaken about the Ayatollah regime.

This is why we strongly believe that the IRGC, the Revolutionary Guard, should be prescribed as a terror organization. Because this is as terrorist as you can get when you're spreading terrorism all around the world. And I believe that the world should work harder in order to stop Iran from its ambitious and from what it does in the region.

So we need to work harder. I don't think this is the last thing that the world should do about Iran means more sanctions. It means prescribing the IRGC and basically isolating Iran. And we saw that even though in a certain point there was a strong pressure on Iran, it stopped and more money flew to the iranian economy.

And they're not in a point where they feel like they're on their knees. So we need to work harder against Iran.

>> Andrew Roberts: Can you understand why the British Government hasn't sanctioned and prescribed the IRGC? There's a move for it in parliament, it's very much supported in the House of Lords.

We've written letters to ask that this be done, and yet the Foreign Office blocks it each time. Would you say is the reason behind that?

>> Tzipi Hotovely: I think, first of all, to begin with, that the UK's position about Iran was very strong when it comes to sanctions regime.

So we do believe that the british leadership and all british agencies, including your excellent intelligence, understand what Iran is up to and where it makes the progress about the nuclear program. So I think it's just the approach of how to reach out to the same result. So how you create the best messaging communication on a diplomatic level.

So we still believe that in order to achieve full stop of Iran's aggression in the region, you need to do more. But again, the british been great partners for fighting the iranian threat, including on the ground with the Royal Air force in the last attack.

>> Andrew Roberts: Thank you.

Now, questions that I always ask all my guests are what history book or biography have you been reading recently? And also for your favorite counterfactual history, what if? So, let's start with the first one. What book will you recommend to my. Now, 400,000 people downloaded this podcast, so make a bestseller overnight.

What have you been enjoying recently?

>> Tzipi Hotovely: I'm afraid I'm already reading a bestsellers, so I have two actually to recommend. So, one, I'm reading a great biography of Tolkien written by Humphrey Spencer. So I really love. Since I came here, I got back to all my childhood experience.

You know, I didn't have Harry Potter when I was a child, so my children get to enjoy that. But I do enjoy all your amazing world that is based on your Celtic tradition and King Arthur legend. So I love all this stuff. So for me, Tolkien was a great author to read about, and this biography is actually fun to read.

A more serious book written by Tim Bouverie is appeasing Hitler, and this is a book that I really recommend in order to understand. We all admire Churchill, but sometimes it's easy to forget how popular Chamberlain was with his appeasement and with the idea that maybe peace is possible with this type of radical people.

And we need to learn from this chapter in history that those type of ideologies cannot be appeased. But you need to go through those moments in history to understand how appeasement was actually popular.

>> Andrew Roberts: Yeah, Tim's book is excellent, I've read it. And he's now working on a book about the Foreign Office during the second World War.

I think that'll be a very interesting book as well. And your favourite what if? Tell me your counterfactual.

>> Tzipi Hotovely: So I'm afraid the instinct goes to what if the state of Israel would have been established ten years before it was actually established? So many Jews would have been saved, and the most horrific disaster in the Jewish history was prevented.

So my thoughts are I wish the state of Israel would have been established before I think we can all say amen to that.

>> Andrew Roberts: Ambassador Hotoveli, thank you very much indeed for coming on Secrets of Statecraft.

>> Tzipi Hotovely: Thank you, was a pleasure.

>> Andrew Roberts: My next guest on Secrets of Statecraft is Dan Senior, the author of two books on Israel, the Genius of Israel, and Start up nation.

And his podcast, Call me Back, has become an indispensable resource since the 7th of October.

>> Speaker 1: This podcast is a production of the Hoover Institution, where we generate and promote ideas advancing freedom. For more information about our work, to hear more of our podcasts or view our video content, please visit hoover.org.