Afghanistan Under Taliban Tyranny: A Conversation With Adela Raz

H.R. McMaster: America and other free and open societies face crucial challenges and opportunities abroad that affect security and prosperity at home. This is a series of conversations with guests who bring a deep understanding of today's battlegrounds and creative ideas about how to compete, overcome challenges, capitalize on opportunities, and secure a better future. I am H.R. McMaster, this is Battlegrounds.

Host: On today's episode of Battlegrounds, our focus is on Afghanistan. Our guest, Adela Raz, was the ambassador of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan to the United States and is an outspoken advocate for human rights. Ambassador Roz was the first woman to hold the post of Deputy Chief of Staff for an Afghan president's administrative office.

She served in this post under the administrations of both President Hamid Karzai and President Ashraf Ghani. She was the deputy minister for economic cooperation at Afghanistan's Ministry of Foreign Affairs from 2016 to 2018. From 2018 to July 2021, Raz served as Afghanistan's first female ambassador and permanent representative to the United Nations, where she was the vice president of the 75th session of the General Assembly.

Since 2022, Raz has served as the director of the Afghanistan Policy Lab at the Princeton School of Public and International Affairs. Ambassador Raz has a master's degree in law and diplomacy from the Fletcher School at Tufts University. During the 2019 to 2020 negotiations between United States representatives and the Taliban in DOA, we envoys deluded themselves that the new Taliban regime in Afghanistan would share power, be less repressive, and oppose rather than support other terrorist organizations.

But after the collapse of security in Afghanistan and the deadly us withdrawal from Kabul in August 2021, the Taliban reestablished its brutal and violent form of rule, extinguishing the freedoms Afghans had restored after the US-led coalition and Afghan allies toppled the Taliban regime at the end of 2001.

The Taliban denies basic rights to women and considers women to be property. One of the Taliban's first acts in the fall of 2021 was to ban girls from secondary education as they had before. Women in Afghanistan continue to face punishing restrictions on employment, freedom of movement, and access to medical care.

The Taliban's laws to prevent vice and promote virtue include requirements for a woman to conceal her face, body, and voice outside the home. US officials indulged in wishful thinking that the Taliban would keep a promise to not allow any group or individual against the security of the United States and its allies into Afghanistan.

Three years after the fall of Kabul, Al-Qaeda runs terrorist training camps in at least twelve of Afghanistan's 34 provinces and operates bases with weapons depots. While the Taliban collaborates with other jihadist terrorists. The Afghan people are suffering from a serious humanitarian crisis. The United Nations Development Program estimates that Afghanistan's GDP per capita is $345, which is among the lowest in the world.

In 2023, nearly half of Afghans faced acute hunger, violence and poverty under Taliban rule has made Afghans the third largest displaced population in the world, only outnumbered by Syrian and Ukrainian refugees. We welcome Ambassador Raz to discuss the humanitarian catastrophe and systemic human rights abuses under Taliban rule, the lessons and the consequences of the collapse of the Afghanistan Republic, and the future of Afghanistan and its diaspora.

H.R. McMaster: Ambassador Adela Raz, welcome to Battlegrounds, it's great to see you again, and I really appreciate you joining us.

Adela Raz: Likewise, thank you H.R. McMaster, for your time, and I'm very much looking forward to this conversation today.

H.R. McMaster: Well, we're talking about a somber subject now on the, just after the third anniversary of the collapse of security in Kabul, which really, I think, thrust Afghanistan back into the, I would describe it as the hell of Taliban rule that the afghan people had sadly experienced already from 1996 to 2001.

But there's not much news coming out of Afghanistan these days, at least in the mainstream media. You have to go to particular sites to really understand better what's happening to the Afghan people, and what the situation is. Could you maybe just share with our viewers and catch them up?

We witnessed daily the tragedy of the collapse in Afghanistan, what I would call the self-defeat and humiliating withdrawal. But then, of course, like all issues, even very important issues like this, public attention kind of waned and we haven't heard much lately. Would you mind just sharing your perspective on what's happening in the country?

Adela Raz: Of course, and it's an interesting analysis, you mentioned that in terms of the mainstream media does not cover much of Afghanistan. But for many of us, despite that we're here, we do follow very closely, and this really, I didn't pay attention to it. But in terms of what we hear and from families who are inside the country and of course, with still media outlets and Afghanistan that cover the issue, it's a very daunting and pretty challenging environment right now on so many levels, in so many ways.

First, in terms of the humanitarian situation, as you may know, that Afghanistan was heavily dependent on foreign aid even before, and we had not arrived at economic self-sufficiency then. And it's even worse because it's a regime that does not understand the macroeconomic stability but really well and the policies that they are implementing in the aid that have been impacted.

So that overall has impacted the wellbeing of Afghans living in Afghanistan right now. So it's a very dire economic situation, second, it's a country with 50% of the population is women, and a large number of them are the main households. And in the current situation, they are being banned from working and being the sole breadwinner for their households.

Those familiar families are heavily affected and they have difficult times. In terms of the lifestyle and life for women in Afghanistan, especially young women, it's difficult. It's almost like 23, 24 years ago when I was there and the Taliban for the first time arrived where a woman was banned.

And they're banned today from being outside by themselves. They have to have a family companion, a male family companion with them, and then all those households that do not have male family members to accompany them.

H.R. McMaster: And Adela, I just saw the recent report of even banning women's voices.

Adela Raz: Exactly, women's voices, taxi drivers are not allowed to give a right to a woman by themselves. And that really comes with those who have health issues, those who have young kids to take them to the doctor, that's miserable. That's, Almost you push away a woman for non-existence as a human being in the society and then education.

And I think for so many Afghan women with the country that it is, and was, education was the window of hope for so many of us because that gave us the space to be independent and to stand on our own feet. And that door is closed and it's for the last three years, so girls are not allowed to go to school beyond grade six.

My biggest fear is, honestly speaking, I think it's still a matter of time. And there might be a time that girls will be banned completely from education as well, from great first, because it happened before. So it's dire humanitarian, the dire economic, at the same time, terrible human rights record at this moment, and similarly, it's the worst place for a woman right now on the entire earth for anybody to live and that is Afghanistan, unfortunately.

And it's heartbreaking because I have family, I have within families young girls that once I encourage them, I push them, I ask them to go to school. I told them to think bigger and dream bigger. And today all those dreams are crashed and I still have not had the guts and the strength to be able to do them because I don't know what to tell, what to say.

H.R. McMaster: I can't imagine how heartbreaking it is, I mean, it's heartbreaking for those of us who know Afghanistan a little bit and had the privilege of serving there. For those who were criticizing the US effort in support of the Afghan government and the Afghan people against, I would say, these enemies of all civilized peoples, the Taliban and other Jihadist terrorist organizations.

People criticized that effort for many years saying we weren't doing any good. And I would just say for our servicemen and women, for the Afghans who fought and sacrificed, I mean, this very sad situation, I think, demonstrates how noble that mission was from a humanitarian perspective. But also, Adela, there are big security concerns.

You have a terrorist organization that's in charge of the country. You have somebody like Surajah Connie, who you might maybe tell our listeners something about who's now the head of the Ministry of Interior and issuing passports. I think there's been a report recently that, I just saw a report recently that there are now terrorist training camps, Al Qaeda and other jihadist terrorist organizations in 15 of Afghan's provinces.

So could you maybe bridge from the humanitarian catastrophe that we were just talking about? And then talk a little bit about the terrorist implications and the security threats now that are growing in Afghanistan and maybe a little bit about what's happening across the border in Pakistan as well.

Adela Raz: Absolutely, and before I go there, I also wanted to tap on what you said, the investment that was made in the 20 years before the Taliban, the second time arrival before August 15 2021. I must say, I think I absolutely echo what you say, for me and I always share my life story.

I was one of those young women when I was in Afghanistan, and I had not been able to lift the country. And I was there and I couldn't go to school for five years. And then I once became the first woman ambassador of Afghanistan to the United Nations.

And I always say, despite that, we were among the first countries who joined the UN. We'd never had a female ambassador or female PR or permanent representative at the UN. And I always said that that journey was only possible because of the investment that was made. And I truly echo and say that when people question and doubt, was it worth it?

Was that investment lost? And I always say, no, it's not lost because I'm the product of it and there's so many others. The struggle that's right now Afghan women and Afghan youth are facing right now, and still, despite all the challenges they stand against and try to express their views, is part of the investment.

We have one of the most independent and credible media in the region. And despite all the challenges, they're still trying to do their best. So that is, it's a country with close to 40 million population, and 70% of them are the younger generation. And this generation thinks much differently than the generation of 30 and 40 years ago.

And even compared to the younger generation in the region, must progressively think. So for me, I feel like that is the true investment that had taken place, it has not been lost. And of course, with time we may lose it, and my hope is hopefully we don't.

So, yes, I absolutely echo what you said. And in terms of the security situation, yes, you summarized it in a really good way, because I've been trying to tell people and say, look, when radicalization arrives when radicalization of mind sense thinking and views arrive. And when it started to be cultivated in the way it had been done and 20 years during several madrasas outside of Afghanistan and some inside of Afghanistan and led by the Taliban.

And currently, they're even expanding in that footprint, then this is almost similar to a cancer where you cannot have control over it, it starts to spread. So in the face of it, what we are seeing right now, those who are in the most wanted list, those who are still under the UN sanctions list, they have not been removed from the UN sanctions list they running right now the country.

And then our expectation would be that the next morning they just become a civilian and start to think the right way that any other leader will think, I think that's going to be pretty challenging. That's number one, and number two, it's also the foot soldiers that they have trained.

For me, I think that part really is critical. Even if some of the leaders pretend to look, that they probably have changed or imitate and that they have changed. But their foot soldiers, the type of relationships that those soldiers have built with other terrorist organizations, they were really the survival network for each other for 20 years ago.

Where you were there, American forces were there, Afghan forces were fighting, and that was a survival space and how overnight that survival space will be eliminated. And there are so many intermarriages, as you may know, families are built around that. And so it's a pretty complex and I think probably somehow unrealistic expectations to have, to be honest.

And I think it's also extremely dangerous. And it's something that I feel in a very slow pace, it's spreading. I mean, a good example is right now, look, in Pakistan, I probably might be among the very few Afghans that may think at this moment maybe there is less of a control that even Taliban may have over the TTP in Pakistan because I feel-

H.R. McMaster: This is Turiqui Taliban, Pakistan. This is an offshoot of the Taliban that is vehemently anti-the Pakistani government and army. They conducted that horrible school bombing years ago.

Adela Raz: Exactly, so you already see what is happening in the immediate neighboring country. And I don't know how much of even Taliban leadership will have space or force or control over to contain it because once an ideology is cultivated, once it takes root, once they build this themselves up 20 plus another ten, 15 years.

It's a long-term thought and belief system that's inherited, and you can break it right away. And then it becomes a source of attraction for other radical groups around the world. And here we are, we are in the 21st century and of course, so many great things are happening.

But there is another part to it which is connectivity of mind and thoughts, which is happening so quickly and so fast across the border, across the continents, that I feel it's a source of attraction for the rest of other terrorist networks around the world. And here is a breeding space for it.

So, it's a pretty challenging environment. It's a pretty risky space, and I think the region feels it much faster than any of us at this moment. But you know you are the expert in the security. The security threat, when it arises, cannot be contained in one part of the world and one region.

And especially where we live right now, we are in the world, it can spread so fastly, in a blink of an eye to another part of the world easily. So, God forbid, and I hope it doesn't happen, but your experts are constantly saying the red lights are blinking.

H.R. McMaster: Well, the red lights are blinking, Adela. And, of course, you have a particularly vitriolic group called ISIS Coruscant. And as you alluded to, this is a geographic and ideological part of this jihadist terrorist broad movement, just like the Tigris and Euphrates river valleys are in Syria and Iraq.

And that's one of the reasons why I think you could describe our effort in Afghanistan as an effort, really, to fight along a modern-day frontier between barbarism and civilization. I'm really concerned about the growing jihadist terrorist threat. And as you mentioned, one of the big lies that we heard, or to be maybe a little bit kinder self-delusion, was that there was this bold line between the Taliban and other jihadist terrorist organizations.

And, of course, as you've mentioned and described so clearly, I mean, they share people, they share resources, there are intermarriages, they cooperate oftentimes. And so, I think the danger is growing very significantly. We've already seen the infiltration of some of these jihadist terrorists from Central Asia, and other Central Asian states, across our Southern border, which is another reason we should be concerned because we haven't been securing our Southern border.

So, we've talked about the humanitarian kind of catastrophe. We've talked a little bit about the terrorist threat and how it's growing, but also there have been geostrategic consequences, Adela. I think the self-defeat, I don't know how else to describe it, in Afghanistan, I think, has led to an emboldening of a whole range of adversaries.

And left to some big geopolitical shifts, I'm thinking, of course, of the invasion of Ukraine just a few months later, of course, the collapse in Afghanistan in August of 2021, and the massive reinvasion of Ukraine in February of 2022. But it was around the time of the collapse in Afghanistan that Putin started to marshal forces and wrote a long essay about, hey, Ukraine is not even a thing.

China's become emboldened in Central Asia and elsewhere. Other countries have hedged with Russia, for example. I'm thinking of India because they look behind their back. Who's got our back? Well, hey, the United States just left, so they felt as if they had no option but to hedge with Russia.

So, could you maybe just share your thoughts on the geostrategic consequences of the collapse of 2021?

Adela Raz: Yes, no, absolutely, I will. And I will also kind of incorporate a little bit of my experience when I worked at the United Nations in a multilateral platform where you almost have everybody there, the entire world, and this very competitive diplomatic space.

So, this is very much an observation from an outsider, in a sense, of where the US stands even now and where it stood before, and in a sense, where you're heading and how critical it is to basically balance things. And one thing I always said that you do carry, besides your domestic policies, the US also carries a very heavy responsibility in terms of your foreign policy.

Because for so many countries out there with the legacy that you have always carried on, this is an important legacy. If it's the legacy of human rights, democracy, as you said, civilization, openness, connectivity, a market economy, the things that make the US stand very strong and very different from the rest of the world, it's still there.

And a lot of countries look up to. So, in this very polarized world where we are, I mean, for me, even with the three years that I was at the United Nations and that space where I saw how things were and by the time I was leaving, how things ended.

At that time, I could see we are really in this very polarized stage, and the competition for power is there, very real. So, I think this is one thing that needs to be very much processed heavily, number 1. And number 2, yes, it's a very evolving world. It's a very different world, and especially our part of the region.

And I think it's changing so drastically especially with the role of the GCC countries in terms of the openness, the economic development that they have taken the lead in. And there is a lot that their policy decisions are coming based on how things are evolving. And I think that's a really important element that needs to be incorporated.

And three, as you said, I think the whole element of Afghanistan, I think this was a case of where the international community with great commitment arrived in Afghanistan and tried to bring a brighter day for Afghanistan. And I think no matter what, how much doubt we may have, they did.

I think that part was so obvious that the change happened in the lives of so many Afghans. And even today that we look into and we take pride and we hold that still as an example to move again where we were. That's, I think, a success story and example that you did right.

And I think this is obvious where you are in that evolving space and a decision arrives when the US withdraws with a nation that you had a bilateral strategic agreement, bilateral security strategic agreement, correct? And here we are, as I said, it's a polarized world. People are reshaping, countries are reshaping themselves.

And then I think it comes to a challenging space. You start to decide to say, okay, which way do I go and where do I build my new alliances, right? And then if we link this with Putin's very martial behavior towards Ukraine, it could be the true statement. Who knows, Eichar, McMaster, you know it much better than I do.

All evolving situations, I think some may even link it to the Middle East, what's happening right now, correct? With a very bold behavior from Hamas that could be linked to something like that as well. We don't know, there will be greater analysis in the future. But overall, I think one takeaway that was really, really strong, and your colleagues also looked at it very carefully when post Ukraine there was a resolution that.

And I think here we are with such an impressive history of us. You always have had this time where you pause and you reflect and you look and you move forward. And I think in the case of Afghanistan, it's truly a space that we should get out of the blame game and start to think very critically and very, how do I say soberly and say, look, this happened?

How do we make sure we don't repeat the same if there is a mistake in the future and if there is no mistake, what we have learned to do better? Because I feel Ukraine is the next case. Middle East, the peace talks are happening, that's another issue. And we look in Africa, there is also an evolving situation in security threats arriving.

So I think overall, I feel this is really a time of critical reflection and really identifying how we can do better, because all the questions that we are raising, I think it's a valid question. We may find a different answer or the same answer, but it is a question we must raise.

And I say this very humbly because where you stand, you are still the leader of the free world. And I feel this is something you need to hold it very tight and strong.

H.R. McMaster: Adela, I couldn't agree more. Maybe that's where we could just shift the conversation toward is how did it happen, right?

So, of course, we know that it was after the mass murder attacks of 911 that the United States led a coalition and NATO in a campaign to unseat the Taliban, who were the sponsors and hosts of al Qaeda. Collapsed the Taliban government quite quickly, and we began what became a 20-plus-year commitment to stabilizing Afghanistan and helping the Afghan people establish security.

Of course, in that time, the Taliban regenerated with the help of al Qaeda and with Pakistan's inter-services intelligence, donations from golf donors and so forth. And initiated an extended terrorist and insurgency campaign against the Afghan government, Afghan security forces and coalition forces. But we don't have time to give the whole history of the 20-year war.

But can you maybe just talk about really, how do you explain the collapse and the failure? Because we haven't really come to grips with it in the United States. There have been some congressional hearings that we saw a couple of months ago, but I'd love to just hear your perspective on how do you understand the collapse and the principal causes of it.

Adela Raz: I think this is going to take us such a long time to really get to the core of it. And for me, after three years, I still think about it, right? I can't really find our point fingers into one reason why, it's a multiple reasons, it's many reasons, I think at the forefront because still, and I think I have the right reason to say this.

I do link it to the Afghan leaders as well because those who take power and take responsibility you commit to certain deliverables towards the citizens. And that comes with security risk and risks to your life with all that and all the tough choices one needs to make.

So I think that was definitely, we failed at one part for sure. And then secondly, I think a major question is really H.R. McMaster, it comes to colleagues like you. It's the element that, how the security capability of Afghan forces were built. And I think to me it's not even the capability, the confidence.

I think this is another very intense thesis and question that we need to look and then see in the future how it could be mitigated in other state-building processes as well. So in that sense, I think the security sector, how it was built and the type of dependency and reliances it had, the type of confidence it had or it didn't have, right?

And that's the second part. And I think the third is really the entire state-building process. I think this is a much larger question. A lot of times when I sit with my own friends, our conference, and we sit and there is a part we kind of acknowledge and say somehow it should have collapsed because the state-building process itself had not been done very carefully.

I think there's so much literature out there. It always says a post-conflict country or society, it requires a lot of time in order to build functional state and state institutions. And then usually it's the most stuff and the most long-term investment that it can be made. And I think for that we didn't do right.

And I think the element of corruption was really at the core of it.

H.R. McMaster: Absolutely.

Adela Raz: That's completely undeniable and really fueled it, really made it messy and almost unsustainable.

H.R. McMaster: And it was politically based, right?

Adela Raz: Exactly.

H.R. McMaster: One of the big explanations that is compelling to me is that we essentially took a short-term approach, which you've already alluded to, to a long-term problem.

And as a result, we lengthened the war, made it more costly, and because we just wanted to get out, we just turned everything over to really the mujahideen era elites who we had empowered during the military campaign with our advisory effort and air power. That was quite effective from a military perspective.

But those mujahideen era militias morphed into criminalized patronage networks that affected state capture from the bottom up of critical state ministries and government functions. Border crossings, airports, you name it.

Adela Raz: Just name it.

H.R. McMaster: And because we said, we're leaving, hey, we're leaving, they thought, okay, well, I need to consolidate power in case there's a return of the Civil War of 92 to 96.

And I think that was part of the incentive, right? Was to consolidate power and to get as much out of the assistance effort as they could to build up a war chest. But also, they were criminals, right? So they also want to enrich themselves. But there was a political dimension to this corruption that we didn't really ever address effectively.

Adela Raz: That part, and then I think even post the 911, I think even for me, when I look at that time, even from that, I mean, if we go further, it's even more complex and difficult to analyze. But even post 911, I think with the state-building process, like I have a huge criticism, even the type of democracy we build.

And I think I'm not critical of democracy. I must put this upfront. I am such a strong advocate. And despite even what we have gone through it right now, I feel if anytime again Afghans have the chance to choose another political form, it's gonna be, again, a democratic form.

Because that's who we are. So, no, I'm not-

H.R. McMaster: The Lloyd tradition, all those traditions.

Adela Raz: Yeah, but it was a very centralized system-

H.R. McMaster: It was overly centralized.

Adela Raz: Exactly, and that itself. And then you start to have, now we have this whole debate in question around the justice and the peace element.

And I so clearly remember that it said, well, we can bring justice because if you bring justice, then peace will not be sustainable. But it went the other way around because of the absence of justice, the peace was not sustainable itself.

H.R. McMaster: I think that's so true, yeah.

And this is not an ADIRIS report on all the atrocities and crimes against humanity. It was suppressed and nothing happened.

Adela Raz: Suppressed, and we almost felt like nothing has happened, we just start fresh and we move on. But there was a lot that had happened and we couldn't move on, we all held grievances and grudges against each other.

And to me, I think a good wake-up call was when the fall of Kabul happened. And then the hate that came from the society, from individuals that I know, from people that I know internally. And that really shocked me beyond anything. I was just like, where was this?

And that's where I felt we were not ready, we had not really addressed how far, how much of a pain we have, and we have to address this. So I feel this it requires a lot of study, it requires a lot of reflection. And I'm constantly saying the case of Afghanistan is the modern-day case study, that we need to look into it in multiple ways.

The security intervention, in a sense, how it could be sustainable in the future because I agree, 20 years is still long for 20 years, it's-

H.R. McMaster: If you've taken a long-term approach, think about what you could have done to reduce those dependencies you talked about.

Adela Raz: Economic, private sector development, we didn't work on that.

H.R. McMaster: And also what happened is turning a blind eye to these criminalized patronage networks who were hollowing out the institutions as we were trying to build them. And-

Adela Raz: Because we were thinking so traditionally, we said, the elites are the one who's going to control it.

H.R. McMaster: Right, and all we need to do is train people, educate people.

No, it's a political problem, it was again associated with us saying, hey, we're leaving. Because I think at the time, President Karzai, what he did is he fostered a political settlement in Afghanistan that was actually reliant on unchecked criminality. And so he essentially gave these groups license to loot the state in exchange for their political support, their political fealty.

And that political settlement became reliant on this kind of culture of impunity. And we just didn't do it and we didn't do enough about it. And what we did is we took an approach for some time. This is before 2009, 10, remember when we kind of turned on 8, 9, 10, a lot of cash came into the country well beyond the absorptive capacity-

Adela Raz: Unaccounted, there was no mechanism for talking and accountability, correct?

H.R. McMaster: And our message was, hey, if you don't reform if you don't take on corruption, we'll give you twice as much money next year. I mean, that's exactly, it was crazy.

Adela Raz: And we're doing the same thing now in other parts of the world.

H.R. McMaster: Yeah.

Adela Raz: I'm not going to name it in this podcast.

Adela Raz: It's happening, so that's where my concern arrives. I think the culture of impunity had been so bolded, and for so many of us, we'd have, it was this whole debate of because we unite to bring peace so we can go on the justice part.

So it's okay, we're gonna move with this individual, we're gonna move forward, and it was replicated. It was replicated with the presence of so many people who came from the outside. And with that, I mean, the Afghans would second dual citizenships as well. So, this is my other criticism.

I always say if there is ever a chance again in Afghanistan and other parts of the world, we must be very cautious and careful with those who have dual citizenship. And if it's me or anyone else because this was one more thing. When you have a safety net outside of Afghanistan, right away, naturally you think about, okay, I'm going to do my best, and if it doesn't work, then I will walk away.

And that's what happened, people exactly did the same thing. They tried, it didn't work, they just walked away. And I think it shouldn't be like that. Because if you and your family live there, if your kids go to the same school, if your kids are leaving, you have invested investments in Afghanistan, you put your blood and your life to make sure it works it out.

And it can be Afghanistan, it can be in Sudan, it can be in other parts of the world as well. But I think this part of, if we are promoting, because at the end of the day, let's take it there is always support for few individuals that we really wish to come to the forefront and become, quote-unquote, the leader.

And I think there should be still pre-checks in advance. And I think for me strongly one comes really this element of where do they have their bank accounts? Is it inside the country or outside the country? As long as it's outside the country, don't trust, correct.

And I think this is what we should really keep in mind. And in the case of Afghanistan, one thing else was really pushed back, it was the younger generation. I think the younger generation naturally was pushed away from society because it's a very patriarchal society in the sense of the elite and the hierarchy really matters.

And a little bit of criticism for the Western experts that arrived, they pushed that ideology as well. This whole orientalist thought this is how Afghanistan was managed and controlled for centuries and traditionally. And we're gonna embolden the same structure and I think that's where the challenge has arrived.

I'm sure I'm gonna be very much challenged by so many Afghan who do not think the way I do. But I feel the voice of women, the younger generation is an important element. And hopefully in the future we address this because to me I say, it's going to be those who are their 20s who are gonna make the right decision.

Because for us, even me, not 30 years, for me, I think this generation, we had one chance, we messed it up. We should not be given a second chance, it should be the younger ones. And I think it should replicate in other parts of the world as well, hopefully.

H.R. McMaster: And Adela, it was one of the most heartbreaking parts of this is that so many of my friends were part of this multiethnic reform movement. That had a really clear vision for the future of the country and were working hard to help realize that future. And I'm thinking of some of the young students I know at American University of Afghanistan.

Those who had even suffered wounds in a Taliban attack and refused to remain in Europe after their medical treatment and came back. So many stories like that. So we had this, we talked about like the ugly, right, the corruption and the ineffective aid and how we could have built security force more effectively.

But despite all that I think in 2017, 18, and into 19, I think that the situation had improved from a security perspective. We were on a path for reform, I think, within the security sector in the era of corruption. I mean, Afghanistan wasn't about to become Denmark in terms of corruption, but it was functioning.

And then there was a dramatic reversal in policy by the United States. To send an envoy, Ambassador Zal Khalilzad, to negotiate with the Taliban without the Afghan government present. And I think that's what began a significant downturn in security, and I think you're such a wise person. But you said, you talked about confidence, right?

And I think that is so important in your ability to defend your country, to stand up to these kind of terrorist organizations who really use fear to incite collapse. Fear to establish and maintain control of society and the confidence, I think, of the Afghan people, security forces began to on a downturn, because we're sitting across from the Taliban in Doha without the Afghan government.

Could you maybe just talk about your understanding of the beginning of the collapse when you think it began, and the series of events and decisions that led to those horrible scenes in August of 2021?

Adela Raz: Sure, I think you summarize it well, and I'm going to add to that in a sense that if it is in the case of Afghanistan or any other peace processes.

And the sad story is for us, of course, the modern one or the recent one, was the Doha peace process, correct? But out there in the world, there were so many examples that we could have just looked and studied, should have studied even more carefully that no peace process is ever successful if all parties are not part of it.

So in a sense, if the talk happens and you do not have all parties, if it is the Afghan government, the Afghan people, Afghan women, Afghan youth, I mean, think of it all that that is an absence. So naturally, the end result is not gonna be what you wish for.

And I remember at the time when the talks were about to start, it took us a lot of effort and especially for Afghan women to push, for adding the voice of women to have women in the table, because that was even a hard one. And look at it, it's a country with, as I said, the formal statistics is about 50% women and could be even higher with the war that's taking place.

So, you exclude already half of the population being not there. So how do you expect it's going to be sustainable? And it was not, it failed from head to toe. So, I think that itself and then around that, it was very simple and very understandable arguments that especially Afghan women and Afghan youth brought forward.

And that was how do we protect the gains we have made? And that was if it was the rights of Afghan women, if it was the constitution itself, it was the Afghan parliament. So how do we build? How do we protect these? Because you can go scratch, you have certain things, and then, yes, you reform your political structure, the way that's compromised and negotiated.

And I think if upfront you get the signal, those doesn't matter or this is gonna go anyways. Then you, right away the confidence is broken, you go to the table and you already feel, well, I have to, I've lost this negotiation anyways. And then on the other side, it was also, I think it's a really, really critical takeaway.

Because if you negotiate with the party in conflict and then you give the thinking to the party in conflict that they have worn this, they win this, then you have no tools to pressure them to come forward for any compromise. And I think that's exactly what happened with Taliban ,correct?

I think all of us from here, from the beginning today and said that we are giving them the sense they have won and then they won't come to the table with the element of compromise, and it was true. And then even at the end, I think for some who were really closely following and were at the negotiating table, I think there was a little bit of a sparkle of hope that there was a possible compromise that could have been made which was still then was not contained by our leaders.

So I think the takeaway is simply for any peace process, we have to have all parties on the table. We should have a genuine commitment. An element of compromise should come from all the parties. And when we say all the parties, it's members of the society as well.

Because you have parties in conflict and then you have people who live in that conflict, and that's the regular people. And then we always underestimate their ability and then their contribution to it because we just feel, you know what? Whatever comes, they are going to accept it, that's not the truth.

That is exactly not the truth because they are the actual indicators or factors who are going to implement the agreement itself. And in our case, it was the majority of Afghan, it was the Afghan woman, it was the Afghan youth that we completely excluded them. We just felt they don't exist.

We're gonna make a decision in here and then gonna bring it to them and then they're gonna follow. No, no, it's not.

H.R. McMaster: Adela also, just in terms of, you know, those last, those last years, 2019, 2020 to 2021, it seemed to me as if we almost partnered with the Taliban against the Afghan government.

I think to a lot of our viewers that's gonna sound crazy. But if you think about what we did, we sat down with them, as I mentioned, without the Afghan government present. But then we gave the Taliban a timeline for a withdrawal. And as you mentioned, how does that work?

Where you want to get a favorable negotiated settlement, but you say you're leaving. And then we began to restrict our support for Afghan security forces. We stopped actively targeting the Taliban. We withdrew a lot of our logistics and air support and intelligence support, removed all of our aircraft from the country.

And then we forced the Afghan government to release from prison 5,000 of some of the most heinous criminals you could imagine. And so, it was just blow after blow cycle blow to the confidence, as you mentioned. And so, I think the collapse was completely predictable by the spring of 2021.

And, in fact, I've never mentioned this, actually. But I wrote a letter to President Biden in the spring of 2021. And I said, hey, if you don't do these six things, it's going to collapse and it's going to be an utter disaster. And, of course, he was very stubborn, in his view, wouldn't listen to anybody, including his senior military advisors, about what was necessary.

I mean, how the heck does it make sense to evacuate the military before civilian? I mean, it was a disaster and, and they still haven't come to terms with it or taken any responsibility for it. But I thought maybe you could add like a final word about the collapse.

But then I do wanna have one last question, because I can't believe we're almost out of time. I wanna talk about the future as well. But so, any other thoughts on the collapse? And then I wanna talk about the future and maybe a glimmer of hope, we hope for the future, for the end.

Adela Raz: I think I'll talk about the future. We talked a pretty good chunk on the collapse. And then, as I said, there's so many layers, you can pick it up and then you see. But I wanted to emphasize that we should really think about it in a sober way and really put it forward and say, look, this happened, and how do we make sure we don't repeat the same in other parts of the world if there is a mistake.

But if we have done something really good, how we can strengthen it in the future and other parts of the world as well in the intervention, survive. So I think for all of us, I've been always trying to go in that direction. And I think in terms of future, look, I think I may come pragmatic and naive too, both.

Pragmatic in a sense that, honestly speaking, at this moment, if you ask me, do you foresee a change just knowing where the political wills of the capitals are, correct? Where we are in the world and how much the Afghanistan fatigue is absolutely true and it should be. It's a long-term engagement and that part of the world, I may say, no, I don't know.

I can't give you a timeframe, correct. But if you bring my very much element of being naive in a good way, because I think sometimes you need to be naive to build that hope. When I look back into the history of Afghanistan from 1975, we barely had a sustainable government.

Everything collapsed one after another, for the right reasons. I'm not going to say.

H.R. McMaster: The Sauer revolution, the Russian.

Adela Raz: It started with revolution and then it just moved. And now, even with the former government, it lasted for 20 years with huge investment from the international community. So my question arrives, how could Taliban last too long as a very brutal regime that is going even more aggressive on the civilians on a daily basis?

The frustration is at the highest level within every single Afghan, inside the country. And that goes across between men and women, because all those men, we always talk about the element of women who are not able to go to school. But all those brothers, all those parents and fathers and husbands that have to see around that their wives are at home, their daughters cannot go to school, where did that frustration go?

And it piles up. And then with the very weak economic vision that they have with poor governance, complete absence of services to the people, then that's where I come and say that by itself will not last, it's going to fall, correct? And my hope with that is completely linked.

Okay, if that happens, then what to my hope is really the younger generation in Afghanistan. And that's exactly what you were saying earlier, starting from those 2010 and eleven and twelve onward. And then just moving forward, you look at that generation, the generation that were born post 911, they're 20 years old now, right?

23, correct? And this is a generation that was raised in a relatively stable and open and Afghanistan that believed in democratic elements, right? I spoke to a very young woman and really when I talked to her, I had tears in my eyes. And this was in spring of beginning of this year.

I met her in New York and she's here on scholarship, studying. And then the question came in and I said, so what do you wish to do once you finish? And of course, your question is, you think she's gonna say, I'm gonna apply for this job in the US and da da da.

And then her right away answer was like, well, I studied political science because I really wanted to be the next president of Afghanistan, right? And that made me emotional, and this is a girl who's in her twenties and she is born post 911. And to me, that is the hope, right?

This is who they are. She doesn't think in a contained way anymore. So that's where I feel, these are the leaders that will bring the change. They are committed, they're still a goal. They try to do their best as much as possible. They're equipping themselves with education outside of the country, inside the country, whatever is available to them.

And for me, I feel we must not. If they haven't lost hope, we should not lose hope. We must really, really make sure that that breathing space that's still there, that's still raw, that's still fresh because it's still three years. And my God, if it's the fourth and the fifth year, it's even harder.

But we must make sure to invest on those who are inside and really make sure that they do hear our voices. They do hear and think of a brighter future tomorrow. And really, to me, that's where the hope is. Also identifying this, the strong, the potential, the rising leaders from youngsters.

Because no matter how much we try to frame it from left to right, from right to left, from any corner, I think we come to one point, at least in the case of Afghanistan, that the trust is gone. And then there will be no other elite from before or from current or from the ones that are right now leading, quote, unquote, under the Taliban umbrellas, the Taliban members that could be trusted.

I think it must be new faces. And I think all of us start to invest in those new faces, identifying them and bringing them to the forefront, because they are going to be the one who is gonna make the change, and they will.

H.R. McMaster: Absolutely, I can't think of a better way to end.

I'm gonna ask you if you have any final thoughts for our viewers, but I think you're so right about the younger generation and living under these terrorists. What I've seen in Afghanistan, other places, is they try to perpetuate ignorance and use ignorance to foment hatred and then hatred to justify violence and brutality.

And you have to break that cycle and you have to break it at the ignorance part. Education is so important and reaching the younger generation now.

Adela Raz: Yes, and we must do it. And I think while we're talking here, Taliban had been much smarter and a few steps ahead of us.

They're already investing in so many madrasas building up, and then they're tackling exactly where their strengths were with that very small group of youth that they had converted to their ideology. And they wanna expand that network. And I think we shouldn't let that happen. And I say this, I don't know, I'm such a strong supporter of technology.

I say, look, we're in 21st century. We're thinking about living in Mars. Can't we? Or moon, not Mars, moon going to the space. Can we figure out the solution.

H.R. McMaster: A way to get around these firewalls, right? And reach people directly in these regimes?

Adela Raz: Can we educate girls at home?

Can we educate this young man who instead of going to the madras, having equipped to just be linked to the rest of the world? So I think, I feel the hope is not gone. We still have a battle in front of us, and we can definitely fight it more wisely, more effectively, more informally.

And then for me, I think that's what we should go forward, because what is happening right now in Afghanistan, and even, I think you probably heard it, and we have heard it. Even some of the Taliban leaders, they themselves know and feel that this is not gonna last long.

And then they're repeating the exact cycle that you were referring to, impunity, building corruption to the highest level and stealing and putting money away, whatever they could.

H.R. McMaster: Right, gosh, Ambassador Adela Raz, I can't thank you enough for joining us on battlegrounds and helping us learn more about Afghanistan, a battleground that remains vitally important, I think, to all of us.

Thank you on behalf of the Hoover Institution.

Adela Raz: Thank you, Achille McMaster, for having me. Thank you.

H.R. McMaster: It's just great to be with you.

Adela Raz: Likewise, learning from you. You are such a rich experience you have. So I was very much looking forward to speak with you.

H.R. McMaster: It was a great discussion. I can't thank you enough.

Adela Raz: Thank you.

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