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Peter Robinson: Welcome to Uncommon Knowledge. I'm Peter Robinson. Laurence Fox grew up in a theatrical family. His great grandfather was a playwright. His grandfather was an agent. One uncle is the film producer, Robert Fox, another uncle is the actor, Edward Fox. The Assassin and Day of the Jackal. His father is the actor, James Fox Lord Darlington and Remains of the Day. And if I counted correctly half a dozen siblings and cousins are also actors. Lawrence Fox himself attended Harrow and the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art. Probably best known in the United States for playing Sergeant Hathaway on the television drama Lewis. Lawrence Fox has enjoyed a varied career from a role in the Robert Altman classic movie Gosford Park to a role on a stage production of the Shaw classic, Mrs Warner's profession. And now for reasons that he will attempt to persuade us are entirely reasonable. Laurence Fox has given up acting for politics. He has founded a new party, The Reclaim Party, and announced that he is a candidate for mayor of London in the election that will take place on May six. Laurence, welcome. We'll come in a moment to your, to the story of last year. But first the immediate present. You just ran a full-page ad in British newspapers, Winston Churchill, muzzled. The caption, your London, your freedom, reclaim it. And American audience needs an explanation. Churchill, muzzled?
Laurence Fox: Hi Peter, how are you doing? Thank you for having me on. Yes, he has been muzzled. History can't speak back to those that wish to rewrite it or to remove the parts that are unpleasant for them. And I thought there's something very powerful about the idea of people putting up edifices to heroes and then people forgetting the heroic acts that they undertook and instead trying to rewrite it. So I thought, you know, we are living in a, in a period of extreme censorship and extreme political correctness as well. And I thought, and that we're also living in an era of mask mandates as well. So I thought this covers several aspects of the entire freedom of speech debate, which is one of the reasons why we're in the situation we're in lockdown wise in London. And also one of the reasons we're in, how we are culturally in terms of revising our history in a way that's more palatable to others.
Peter Robinson: All right. The culture, as it, as it interfered in your life. The story of the past year. January, 2020 you appear on a television program called Question Time, very well known in Britain, but like a celebrity talk show I should say. Sort of a high brow celebrity talk show. Word of explanation for the American audience. And by the time that program ended, your life had turned upside down. What happened?
Laurence Fox: Yeah, so I was invited on. I was promoting some music at the time I'd written a sort of an anti-censorship song called The Distance and I was promoting it up and down the country. And someone asked me if I'd like to go on Question Time. And I said, yeah, because you know as a family we used to watch it and shout at the television. A lot of families in the UK do. And I thought it'd be great and I'll go on and I'll say what no one else ever says on this program because I know it, I've watched it with several people. And I went on and I did say what was going through my mind and seemingly through quite a lot of people's minds. And a woman said to me that I wasn't really entitled to an opinion. One of the audience members who actually later turned out to be a BBC plant, was planted by the channel. To tell me that I wasn't really allowed an opinion because I was white privileged. And I said, that's racist. Should we not be racist to each other? That's not a cool way of being in 2021. We've had the civil rights movement and these are, the low-hanging fruit of being done. So I, I said, you know, we're a very tolerant country which we are, you know, all the stats say it. I think we're just by New Zealand and Canada in terms of welcoming and tolerance and inter-racial marriage and all this stuff. So I just pointed out this factor and then it exploded. And the actors union, who I've never been a member of because I don't trust them as far as I could throw them, equity. Said it needs to be denounced. So they then went on a period of burn the witch for me, which was fun. And so I then said, I'm going to take you to court. And they had to swiftly retract their statements. And, but by that point, I think the damage was done. You know, showbiz is a very, it's a very temporary area. I mean, weirdly it's not, but it it's, people are frightened of their incomes. So, you know and--
Peter Robinson: You're all working from project to project.
Laurence Fox: You're working with, and you're constantly unemployed, and you've got to have the right views. And my views were just clashing with, with showbiz. And indeed all the institutions now that are meant to be propping up our culture, but are actually dragging them now. So yeah I was, I got, they called canceled. But I think canceled is the wrong word. I think it's excommunicated from the church of woke. Which is, which is a much more serious punishment than canceled, because canceled sounds fun, right. You got canceled. But no, it's an excommunication from a burgeoning religion and yeah. But I mean, they kind of give me wings.
Peter Robinson: All right. So your agent dropped you. They staged a campaign against you. Twitter went wild, all of that. But then, you could have fought back for a day or two and retired to the countryside for a year and waited for it to blow over. Not only did you dig in, rhetorically, attacking right back on Twitter. You founded a political party. How do you go from a bumpy evening on Question Time to founding a political party?
Laurence Fox: Well, it's interesting actually and I can blame you Americans for a lot of this. Because I keep my eye on America much more than I do in England often, because I'm trying to see what's going to come our way. And I remember Victor Davis Hanson being very good on this. But also Ben Shapiro being very good. And he said, do not apologize ever to those. Because you're still going to get your head chopped off with a guillotine and it's still going to be the terror. So do not apologize. Stand up for yourself as much as you can. And I sat there for possibly a period of months feeling like very distraught, 'cause my, it's my source of income, you know. And also I love acting and I love art. I think art is incredible. Not so much at the moment because there's not art at the moment but that's a different story. And I just thought, right, I have to do something about this problem. And I wanted to start a movement. Essentially, it is a movement in a lot of ways. Because it's based around an idea. It's not based around me, even though they try and make it about me. And I was approached by Jeremy Hosking, who is a. I call him a re-balancer. He wants to rebalance things. He's saying, if conversation's going too far in one direction, he would like to rebalance it in the other direction. He said, well start political policy. So I on and on about it and then I thought fine. And actually now--
Peter Robinson: For purposes of this conversation, Jeremy Hosking is fascinating, man in all kinds of ways. But for the purposes of this conversation, here's what matter. He's fabulously rich. He was able to underwrite--
Laurence Fox: Fabulously rich.
Peter Robinson: All right, fine. Carry on. Just wanted to get that fact in.
Laurence Fox: Yeah. He's worth hundreds of millions of pounds. He's a great guy. And I, and he said, start a political party. We argued about it, whether I should be a movement or a party. And in the end we agreed that it would be a party. And actually now I'm very grateful that we did agree it was party. Because if you look at the way the government are heading off in one direction at the moment. It's great that we will have at least some of the teeth.
Peter Robinson: Nick Tyrone, in The Spectator, "Here's the thing "if Laurence Fox is serious about politics "he should become a Tory." Why didn't you?
Laurence Fox: Become a member of the party that gets voted for most opt in party? No, thank you. The thing about the Tories is that they will say, they'll talk a good game, always, but they just want to remain in power. And the thing about me is I don't want to be in power. I want the idea to be in power. And the idea is freedom of expression and the broadest possible debate. It's not really about me. So I did speak to Tories.
Peter Robinson: Let me stay with Nick Tyrone for a moment. This is again, his piece in The Specter of, I guess a fortnight ago. You're running for mayor of London. London of all places. Nick Tyrone, "The actor's brand of anti-wokeness "will play nowhere in the entire country, "worse than in its capital city." Laurence.
Laurence Fox: That's why, that's the only reason, right? If you're, if you're going to hammer the things on the cathedral door you've got to hammer them on the cathedral door. You know, this is, this is the moment. It's, London is the, is the cathedral of wokery. It's the cathedral of identity based, you know moral supremacy. And I think, I don't care. You know also, when I spoke to the other people that were thinking of standing for mayor, of which there are several. I was like I'm going to do it anyway, whether you do it or not. Because it doesn't matter if I lose the only thing that matters if I stand. That's the most important thing.
Peter Robinson: All right. Laurence Fox announcing his candidacy for mayor of London.
Laurence Fox: But importantly, I want to reclaim your freedom to speak, to be yourself, to be part of the national conversation, to cherish your history rather than rewrite it. And to teach our children to be confident not ashamed of who they are and where they come from.
Peter Robinson: I want to reclaim your freedom to speak. I think that I'm speaking for Americans, a large American audience, when I think, well wait a minute, wait a minute. Britain of all places is the, to the extent that we have a grasp on British history. It's where the rights of the individual as against the state first emerge and first take legal form from Magna Carta on. How can it be that this man, this actor is running for mayor of London on freedom of speech. This is, there's a lot. It'll blow over. This is so deeply rooted in British society that it'll all write itself. Explain.
Laurence Fox: I think. I think it's very difficult because if you're, if you're approaching something from a false consensus like everyone believes a certain thing. Which they don't the UK. Lots of people think different things. But in London specifically, we, our institutions are now rising up against us. We have the, you know, you have things like The National Trust saying that they will remove statues and unpleasant statues. You've got Sadiq Khan saying he's done a commission of diversity in the public realm at the cost of a hundred million pounds to remove statues and rename street names. So today I was speaking to someone and there's a road in Tottenham in North London called Black Boys Lane. And Black Boys Lane was not named after black boys. It was named after the son of George the first I think. And it was because he was very dark. So we're having our history totally rewritten and our culture totally revised. Our language is being disabused, by people that wish to serve a different narrative. So London is no longer the cradle of freedom of speech. And the UK is no longer the cradle of freedom of speech, openly. But what we've had is you have the, I'm not very good at describing this. But if you've got the discussion like this and you've got one end of the discussion within any population you've got 25% of people that are quite authoritarian. And on the other side you've got 25% of people that are quite libertarian. But what we've done is we've gone sliced straight down the middle and we've removed the libertarian side of the argument. The freedom loving, conversational base, constant continual conversation of culture which is wonderful. And we've just stopped it. So this 25% of authoritarian people that want to shut down debate, shut down any form. They're biological denialists. They're misogynists as well these people. It's just they're now very loud. So I'm saying we do need to reclaim that half of the conversation again. It's not about me. It's about saying you, in order to make a conversation balanced and sort of 52 48, like Brexit. So there's a big argument on both sides. That's a good thing. What you don't want is a 95, five conversation which is what we're ending up with here. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's how I feel.
Peter Robinson: It makes striking sense. Once again, Laurence Fox announcing for mayor of London.
Laurence Fox: Well, I want to reclaim your freedom. I want to reclaim your freedom to work when you want to work, where you want to work and how you want to work and remove all the obstacles that stand between you and rebuilding after these lockdowns. And I want to reclaim your freedom to move. To be with whoever you want to be with and when you want to be with them. Your fundamental human need to be together. In sickness and in health. And to never take that freedom away again. Nobody should say their last goodbyes to anybody on an iPad ever again.
Peter Robinson: Freedom of speech is one thing, but there you're campaigning against the lockdown. What's the connection?
Laurence Fox: The connection is the debate. So the broadest possible debate would have led, to it possibly, in my view, sorry. You know, again 'cause it is always your view. It is this idea that if there had been a more balanced debate around this, then the lockdown may not have been considered as an option. You know, the guy who's, who's. And also, I think we're, we're entering a period of reflection now where we can go with comparison analysis. Lockdown has, the, I'm waiting for someone to give me any evidence a lockdown is a good idea. So what happened was we stifled the debate very quickly and we politicized it very heavily to make goodies and baddies. And this is not how you have a solid political debate with people or within a family. So I think lockdown is actually, you know, an exemplar of how bad decisions are made when debate is stifled. But I watched that video. I haven't seen that vide for a while and I thought, yup, stand by that. And I tend to watch what I say and I go, yeah I stand by that because it's true.
Peter Robinson: All right, Melanie Phillips. Melanie Phillips in the London Times. Melanie Phillips but, is broadly speaking libertarian. She's, she's on--
Laurence Fox: She's great.
Peter Robinson: She's broadly speaking. But, "Fox's defense of the freedom to express ideas "is welcome and understandable. "However," quite a lot hangs on this however. "However, he equates the culture of coerced conformity "with the COVID lockdown restrictions. "But these restrictions were necessary given the threat "from a virus that is so infectious and deadly." Freedom of speech, of course. But we had to lockdown the country because of this stinking virus. And by the way, I can't recall the latest statistic, but something like 40% of adults over the age of 50 have already been vaccinated. Just bide your time Laurence. Just drop out of this campaign if necessary and come to California. Then go home in three months and it'll all be over. Tying the freedom of speech to the lockdown as a political, it's a mistake. It's just a mistake.
Laurence Fox: I can totally see that. I think it's, I think it's a very, it's a very bold move. But again, all I'm saying is my view on the lockdown. What lockdowns have revealed and what people's response to the virus itself has, has revealed very personal biases. So Melanie Phillips, who, if you've watched her in the past she will defend anybody to the end of the world. But you can see within what she wrote a sense of personal, personal dread about the power of the virus. So I'm saying let's just take a couple of steps away and go what are we actually dealing with here, guys? And what, what are. If we're weighing up what impingements, we're going to put on our personal liberty versus the fallacy of a virus then it's a no brainer, for me. But that's just my opinion. All I'm really saying is, shall we have the conversation? So, and it's interesting that what happens with me is that people will write in instant comment pieces on me and then later on, they will reflect and go, oh actually he had a point. And that's what seems to happen. Because I'm kind of looking at it more. I'm not looking at it short term, I'm looking long-term. Here's a point which I really find mad about this. That if you can lock an entire society down for one year. You convince the population, and there's no major repercussions. You convince the population that society is an anathema. It's not real, it doesn't exists. You go, we can shut it down. So what you're doing is, you're destabilizing democracy. You're destabilizing civilization by doing that. And I find that, something that I have to stand up against. It's not something, it's not a position I want to. I'm not anti lockdown because it's fashionable. I'm anti lockdown because there's zero science behind it. That's why I'm anti lockdown.
Peter Robinson: All right. The race itself, a word about the position. Mayor of of London, chief executive of the greater London authority a position created in 2000. And, this is worth noting. That in all of the United Kingdom the mayor of London is at least in one way the leading figure. By contrast with members of parliament who represent relatively small constituencies. Boris Johnson, prime minister, he wins his seat in parliament with 25,000 votes. To become mayor of London you have to win well over a million. Boris Johnson, 2019 wins 25,000 votes and is prime minister. Sadiq Khan, the current mayor of London wins in 2016 by capturing a million and a quarter votes. So to the extent that votes confer standing. The mayor of London has more standing in the United Kingdom than any other figure. Just to say that you're running for a very big job. Sadiq Khan, mayor since 2016, raised in a working family of Pakistani origin. Former Labor Party member of parliament. From a story on the website of, On London. And I grant that this story dates from January, just before you announced. But still, "Sadiq Khan takes 21 point poll lead "and is on course for record breaking win." Subhead, "Unless the incumbent mayor's numbers collapse "he will win city hall by the biggest margin ever." Laurence, what's wrong with Sadiq Khan?
Laurence Fox: Sadiq Khan is a man who would like to build a city in his own ideological image. So he, he sees London, as a vehicle with which to represent his religion. And it's not, the religion, his Muslim religion. No, I don't think that's go anything to do with it. Worryingly, it'd be better if it did oddly. But he, it's this religion of wearing you conscience outside of yourself, which is so different to what, is, which is a very British thing. So he's, you know on new year's eve, instead of he's throwing fireworks up with Black Lives Matter fists and European flags. And most people are sat there going, didn't we just leave the European Union. Should we not be looking where we're going to go moving forward? And then in terms of the Black Lives Matter first, it's like, don't, stop reminding us. Everyone really cares about black lives. Stop virtue signaling wearing your conscience on the outside of your, personality to rub into us why, why we're so much less worthy to lead this city than us. His problem actually is that he would never speak to someone like me. And that is his mistake. Because he should see it, and I should be able to ask him. I should be able to say to him quite openly. How do you feel about the statue of Queen Victoria opposite Buckingham palace, that the Queen wakes up and looks out of her bedroom window too?
Peter Robinson: Two quotations. This is from a Labor Party website. Sadiq. How is that pronounced? Sadiq, which, where's the stress in--
Laurence Fox: Sad-Sa- Sadiq Kahn.
Peter Robinson: Sadiq. Sadiq Kahn. "Sadiq is leading the fight against racism "by setting up a new commission for diversity "in the public realm to help ensure the capital's population "and history are celebrated and commemorated." You've, you've already mentioned it. Here's a tweet by Laurence Fox. "If I am elected mayor, no statute will be torn down "and no street will be renamed." Quite the opposite. "I pledged to increase the number of statues." Why does that matter?
Laurence Fox: Why does it matter to increase the number of statues?
Peter Robinson: No, the whole issue?
Laurence Fox: Not, not arbitrarily? Well, it does matter deeply. Because the capital city is the heart of a nation and all out beyond the capital city. I mean, it's very different now in Western democracies. As you'll find in America, you know the metropolitan area start to become heavily over liberal in one direction, and they isolate the areas beyond. But I grew up and I spent time outside of London. And these values that he's trying to undermine. And, you know, bearing in mind that this commissioned for diversity in the public realm, He hired a vowed anti-Semite onto this thing. I applied to be on to this commission. Because I thought, come on, you know, let's have at least one dissenting voice. It's, you don't do it. History is not ours. We don't own it. This whole idea that we own history. We do not own history. We are responsible of history and we are the custodians of it for our children. So that I can take my child up to a slave traders statue and I'll go, this guy was a slave trader. Not we wiped the statue out because he was a slave trader.
Peter Robinson: Two more quotations. Sadiq Khan replaying to a question about non hate crime incidents. This is a written on a website. This is confusing to me and to Americans. Non-crime hate in--
Laurence Fox: Hate incidents. Try reading the guidance, it's insane.
Peter Robinson: All right. So here's Sadiq Khan. "Hate crime incidents are recorded on a police systems, "even when they don't meet the threshold "to be categorized as criminal offenses. "This helps to build an intelligence picture for police." A tweet by Laurence Fox, "Let's scrap the recording "of non-crime hate incidents. "Police streets, not Tweets." Explain this.
Laurence Fox: We're not in Minority Report. This is pre-crime. This whole thing of the non--
Peter Robinson: I don't even understand what is a, a...
Laurence Fox: It's nonexistent Orwellian, it's double think.
Peter Robinson: Non crime hate incidents.
Laurence Fox: So the genesis of this was, there was a horrific race-based murder of a guy called Stephen Lawrence in 1991 in the UK. And the police decided that if they had been able to record the people in their homes before had it took place, that they would had been able to prevent the crime. So this is where the genesis of it. But what happens is this guidance non-crime hate incidents. This is not gone, this is not gone through parliament. This is not being debated or discussed in parliament. It comes through something called, it's the college of policing I think it's called. Which is a totally unelected body. And they come up with these incredible Orwellian madness's of non-crime crimes. And the people are starting to push back against it now. So I'm saying and when I'm saying, police streets, not Tweets. I would say what London would benefit from is instead of having someone sitting there going are you thinking the wrong thoughts. Why don't you put your shoes on chum, go out over there and make sure that people, the community see you on the streets so that you can police us consensually. That's the thing about the difference between American policing and British policing, is we do police by consent here. And what's happening is we're very much dividing it. With all of this stuff, everything I've learned in the last 10 or 11 months of trying to get my head around the madness of politics, is every time man tries to interfere with another man, the bogeyman is what comes out of it. It's always the thing you don't think that will happen happens. And this non-crime hate incident thing is insane. I mean, you read the guidance. I'm releasing a paper very soon.
Peter Robinson: Metropolitan. I just want to understand what is happening, what, what you're referring to. Metropolitan Police, who are under the direct authority of the mayor of London. It's a complicated job, but that's one place where the mayor has direct authority. He runs the largest police operation in the nation, in the kingdom. And some piece of budget and some amount of manpower, or person power, if that's the term we have to use of the metropolitan police is being devoted to non-crime hate incidents, which means what? Somebody pops off on Twitter and that gets recorded by the Metropolitan Police?
Laurence Fox: Yeah. And then it goes, it then goes on your, on an, what we call an enhanced DBS check here. So if you're trying to get a job in the UK and an employer, does an enhanced DBS check. So you've Tweeted something like women have breasts for example, some horrendous piece of heresy like that. You can end up on, you can be reported. So a citizen can go onto a website called True Vision and they can report you for a non-crime hate incident. That then goes on your record, you never have any knowledge of this and you lose your job or you won't get hired, because you will fail a social security back check for you to try and get employed. It's so pernicious.
Peter Robinson: Okay. This is, I'm just. Maybe I'm dawning. This is dawning on me, the way it's dawning on some of the people you hope to become your constituents. But that is one tiny step away from the social credit system that the Chinese are rolling out. It is social, it is the social credit system. And that did not, this is not taking place. That is a fundamental change in the way--
Laurence Fox: In democracy.
Peter Robinson: In the relationship between the Metropolitan Police and the people whom they police. And it just happened because Sadiq Khan approves of it and the police have gotten woke. That did not move through parliament.
Laurence Fox: Not once.
Laurence Fox: So what, but what's happening now in Scotland is that they have debated the Scottish hate crime bill, which was also coming to the UK. Which will make it an offense to say anything offensive within your own home in front of your children. So Scotland has already passed this bill now, which is horrendous. I'm going to stand a candidate in Scotland against there. The guy that has been a major proponent of this, a guy called Hamza Yusuf in the coming election. It is absolutely astonishing. But what they do is that they push this through without sort of advertising it. You know, they sort of go, yeah, it's really important. No one likes hate, right? But no one ends up having the discussion which is really important. Which is like, who gets to choose what hate is guys?
Peter Robinson: Right?
Laurence Fox: Subjective legislation is the bad thing.
Peter Robinson: One last time, two quotations. Here's, I need to set this up again. I think this is the last longish setup I've got here in my notes, Laurence so bear with me. Early in March, a young woman named Sarah Everard disappears while walking in London, her body has since been found. A group held a vigil in her honor at Clapham Common, the park near the place, wherever Everard disappeared. The police warned against holding the vigil, citing COVID restrictions. And the vigil went ahead anyway, totally peacefully. Police broke it up. And this was captured on video and rolled out through Twitter. A Tweet by Saudi Kahn, "The scenes from Clapham Common are unacceptable. "The police have a responsibility to enforce COVID laws, "but the response "was neither appropriate nor proportionate." The police report to him. A Tweet by Laurence Fox, you, replying to Sadiq Khan. "You've encouraged the politicization of policing. "You've stoked fires of race. "You take the knee to rioters "who want to destroy our way of life. "And you kneel on the backs "of girls at a vigil to a murdered woman." That is very hot language. First of all, what do you mean he takes a knee to rioters?
Laurence Fox: So in the summer, you know, the thing about restrictions is we've all got to obey them, don't we. You know, if there are COVID restrictions, then there have to be COVID restrictions. And in the summer, there was obviously a lot of. We have both Black Lives Matter protests and extinction rebellion protests in London. And none of them were policed in this way. So there's a two-tier policing system going on.
Peter Robinson: Protestors didn't get dragged off, they didn't get handcuffed. Crowds were not dispersed.
Laurence Fox: No. Not at all. So, he has oversight of this. And these women asked for permission to protest.
Peter Robinson: At the Sarah Everard vigil.
Laurence Fox: Yeah. And all it would have taken was to say, yeah absolutely. Tensions are high, emotions is high. They're not even protesting, it's a vigil, right. And you end up with a policeman with his knee on the back of, well at the end of the day she's an activist. And these things always get hijacked by activist. But the two-tired nature of this policing and the politicization of policing I find so wrong. Because the whole idea, the agreement. Well the spoken and unspoken agreement between the citizen and the policemen is that you we consent for you to behave in this way. And what Sadiq Khan has said, is he said some things are cool. Black Lives Matter protests are cool. Which we, all of our media call largely peaceful and you've got policewomen being thrown off horses and bikes being thrown in crowds. So they all know this isn't true. And essentially a rebellion of blocking bridges, dressed as wizards, while people are trying to get ambulances over the bridge to hospitals. And actually there were examples of people missing, of dying trying to get over bridges. So the rage and the fury. The righteous anger actually. But in my mind, very very upsetting. Is that you cannot ask the public to trust you of which you have oversight, if you're going to police things politically. It's not your job.
Peter Robinson: Sadiq Khan is the mayor you're running against him, obviously. There are number of other candidates in the race. There's a conservative party candidate, a green party candidate, and on and on and on. But you're running against Sadiq Khan and one other person who's a little bit surprising, Boris Johnson. I'd like to roll a piece of tape from a recent video you've done.
Laurence Fox: This is a message to Boris Johnson from The Reclaim party. We urge you to lift lockdown in time for the Easter holidays permanently and finally. So that families can get back together and people can get on with the important business of rebuilding their lives. You said that you would follow the data and not the dates. So here's some data for you. One person, albeit tragically, but one person died within 28 days of a positive COVID test in London yesterday. Cases and deaths are plummeting, thankfully. And yet here you are plucking more than a billion pounds a day from some magic money tree dissolving and diluting the value of our currency and placing a burden of death on our children they may never be able to repay. It is our life, our freedom, we want to reclaim it.
Peter Robinson: Laurence. You're good at that.
Laurence Fox: Thank you.
Peter Robinson: But you have to tell me why you're, as. You're running for mayor of London, why are you taking a pop at the prime minster?
Laurence Fox: Well, I think he's told us relentlessly that he would follow the data and not the dates, right. So the data is one person died within 48 hours in London, within 28 days of positive COVID test. It's like, I am speaking. I was on a march on the weekend with everyone else who wanted to be unlocked. And I'm not being approached by middle-class people who sit on computers all afternoon. I'm being approached by working people saying, thank you, thank you, thank you. 'Cause these are the, you know, without I know it's a it's a pretty trite analogy. But these are the, these are the victims of the, of the COVID Holocaust. You know, these are the people that aren't getting saved. It's, it's really bad. They're the ones that are left out to nothing.
Peter Robinson: All right, back to, back to trying to sort out. Back to trying to decide what to make of Laurence Fox. You just raised this point about working people. London, especially central London is dominated by people who still think of themselves. The term working class is still used proudly in London. Good members of the Labor Party. Now here is Kevin Whately, your co-star on Lewis talking about you, in a friendly way, but he's talking about you. First he notes that you attended Harrow, not Eton. And then quote, "You see," says Kevin, Whately. "Really posh people go to Eton, "so Laurence thinks he's working class. "But he's a member of the Fox dynasty. "He's very, very posh." Well, I have to break it to you, you are posh by the usual measures. What connection can you hope to establish to Sadiq Khan's base? Those people in central London who are working people. Vote, have voted Labor all their lives. How does Laurence, how does the posh Mr. Fox make a connection?
Laurence Fox: I think by thinking of them. But I also think Sadiq's base is much more. I don't think Sadiq's base is particularly working class in a lot of ways. If you look at the demographics of London I think Tories pick up votes in the working class areas. And they also need a voice. I do love Kevin though 'cause that's hilarious. Kevin and I used to talk all the time about whether who was. 'Cause he'd go on about being working class. And then he'd send me for Christmas, a case of 2010 Gigondas or something. And I'd be like, who's the working class one here Kev? You've got the nicest wine cellar on earth. So I don't really aide this--
Peter Robinson: But you said something really interesting there. So Sadiq Kahn's real base is the woke middle-class.
Laurence Fox: Woke middle class and the immigrant class, which is, which is great. But actually I think that there's a, there's a. I'm fascinated to know why people. He's got a huge popularity rating. But if you look at the figures and the stats you go, but knife crime is all time high, murders are up, burglaries up, everything's up. Why is he so popular? I think it's this identitarian. You know, this sort of, I'm, I've got an answer for all diverse, inclusive. You know, it's just, it doesn't fit. But I think London buys it because London wants to be the sort of the, the applauder of these sorts of values. He'd said it, my dad, I spoke to my dad today. And then he said, Sadiq put a, one of Sadiq's people put a leaflet through my door. And it said, I stand up for London's values. And he said, what are London's values Los? That's what he said to me. He said, what do you think that means? What'd you think London's values are? And I said, I think it's, it's a politically ideological value system that isn't based around people. It's based around words and meaningless phrases.
Peter Robinson: Let me ask a new question. In my continuing effort to sort out Laurence Fox. What to make of this actor. From your piece in The Telegraph announcing your candidacy. Again a longish quotation. But, this is for substantially American audience. So we have to, we have to explain you. We have to work hard to explain you. I'm still trying to sort you out myself. Quoting you, "Sadiq Khan and his nation-hating cronies "have their jealous eyes out, "jealous eyes on our statutes and institutions. "Where does his desire to strip us of our history end? "Surely Queen Victoria should be torn down "from her plinth in front of Buckingham Palace "to be replaced with a monument to Greta Thunberg. "Why are none of our politicians standing to defend us? "I feel it's important to confess "just how in love I am with these tiny island splotches "we call home, and how immovable I am in that love."
Laurence Fox: Amen.
Peter Robinson: Well, now if I want it to be a little unfair, but only a little. I'd say you sound almost like Nigel Farage, or you sound like former Tory prime minister, John Major, who famously called Britain, the country of long shadows on cricket grounds and warm beer. You're young. You're an actor. You're cool. You ride motorbikes. You have tattoos You roll your own little black cigarettes. And here you are championing Winston Churchill and Queen Victoria. How do those two Laurence Foxes go together?
Laurence Fox: I think that we touched briefly on art earlier. I'm an artist. I love art and I love them holding the mirror up to nature. And I love the idea that art is to push against cultural norms that we don't want to accept. And I find that art is no longer a place where one can do that. It's very difficult to actually, you know with all these 25 million films you can watch on Netflix. You're like, I can't, there's nothing I want to watch. So that to me, politics is the only place where ideas can be discussed openly, really. That's what I find. I don't think, I'm trying to sort of hark back to a bygone era of Britain, even though I think we should pay due deference to the sacrifices made by others. Because otherwise how can we be grateful to anybody. But no, I think modern Britain is shaped on those sacrifices. It's on the, on the Churchills. Imagine Churchill on Twitter. Can you imagine what would have happened if they're like should we do the battle of Britain, Twitter poll? You know, we'd all, we would all be speaking German. So I think it's worth turning around and saying these people and certainly Queen Victoria. You know, and the current queen, who's now being pushed by, by these sort of crazy nut-job ideologues. She's thinking of hiring a diversity czar for the Royal family. You know what I mean? So she's going to have a woke party commissar, in the Royal family saying, excuse me ma'am, no we don't say that anymore. I'm trying to say we do not need cultural commissars within our national institutions. The national institutions should reflect the nation. That's all I would say. I think that could sound old fashioned, but I think it's normal.
Peter Robinson: A few last questions Laurence. You're running for mayor of London, not New York, not San Francisco. But even if that you follow American, the American scene very closely as you've said. Anything, you'd like to say to us yanks?
Laurence Fox: I'm. So looking forward to 2024. I was watching Kamala Harris walk up the stairs to Air Force One and not turn around and not salute the people. And I was immediately dragged into A Few Good Men. And these walls had to be guarded by men with guns. Who's going to do it? You, you lieutenant Weinberg. And I just thought, you know, Aaron Sorkin got it. He got the conundrum between service and acceptance of service. And it was a conversation art. It explained you the conundrum of that. And I said, and I think in terms of America, I go god bless America, because it's just the greatest idea in the world, you know, built on freedom of speech and the ability to preserve that and passive rights. And I think America will get its voice back. But I think it's tragic that, you know, these very horrible phrases are bandied around by your politicians about 70 million people who voted for the other guy. I just think it's really sad. So I look forward to 2024 Markle versus Trump.
Peter Robinson: That is, of all the things you said, that is the one that most causes my head to hurt. You have two sons and four dogs and a--
Laurence Fox: Three.
Peter Robinson: Three dogs and a career to return to maybe sometime at some point. We'll come to that in just a moment. But how's it going? Are you enjoying yourself? You've turned over as I understand it again, you've turned over most of your house to volunteers who are printing leaflets and editing videos and so forth. Are you enjoying this or do you secretly say to yourself when you flop into bed exhausted after the 27th Zoom call of the day. What in the, how could I have done this? What a mistake I made.
Laurence Fox: Not at all. I feel absolutely free for the first time ever. And I know this because a friend of mine is in the process of being totally canceled and ex-communicated at the moment. And he's struggling so much with how, shall he give back, should he try and apologize. And he said to me, he said how can this just be so natural to you? And I just said, because I'm free and I'm free actually because I'd been released from my shackles of having to fit into the establishment version of what art is or showbiz or any of that is. And my only requirement of myself is to go, this is the truth as I observe it. I stand by other's right to question my truth, my truth. But to question, to question my view. And I, I just think that's pure freedom, right. So if you can't. In the same way as a motorbike is pure freedom and you're driving around a motorbike and go. But here, we're talking about the preservation of an idea. And all my love, you know, that freedom is never one generation from being extinct. It's not, we don't not pass it on in the bloodstream. It's I, I go, this is my responsibility. So it doesn't really matter what I feel like when I go to bed at night. What, I feel like when I go to bed at night it's like, I need to watch it at least half an hour of more Modern Family with the kids tomorrow night, so that they know I still love them. That's my bug
Peter Robinson: Penultimate question. Last question in a moment. And I'm going to give you the opportunity to demonstrate how thoroughly you've become a politician by refusing to answer this question, if you wish. But the question is. The polls would suggest there's just a chance that you won't win. Is there, would you care to entertain that possibility? Have you thought about what's next, May sixth?
Laurence Fox: I know what's next, I know what's happening on. I know what's happening on May the eighth. I'm releasing my 33-page legal remedy to freedom speech within the UK law two days after the election finishes. With the foreword by the most preeminent liberal judge in Britain and everything else. It's planned, I've got it planned.
Peter Robinson: So, so, so, so win or lose, and the polls would suggest one is more likely than the other. You're going forward with The Reclaim Party win or lose?
Laurence Fox: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is the London mayoralty.
Peter Robinson: Honestly, I truly. I sort of half thought you said that on, if the polls are disappointed, if the votes are disappointing on May sixth, on May seventh you're going to start reading scripts again. But you're not saying that at all.
Laurence Fox: No, no, the vote. Look, we have to be honest with each other and tears that it brings to my eyes to admit this. To take on workery, in the cathedral of wokery is possibly not going to be my first political victory. I've accepted that, but I've decided that I'll win anyway. It doesn't matter. And as long as I put a good showing in for those that care about freedom and liberty and the ability to express himself, that's all I care about. That's my goal. Come the week after I will release this paper, which will be the first piece of, first piece of legal remedy in 20 years in this country that says here are the problems here are our minor suggestions to amend and redirect law away from trying to interfere with the way people think and back in towards the way people do.
Peter Robinson: All right. I have to pursue that for just a moment. Because you're going to release proposed legislation. The forward is going to be written by Lords Sumption a former member of the Supreme Court, who gets described Google on him. And this keeps, the phrase keeps popping up, the cleverest man in England. Brilliant man, who has respect across as best I can tell sort of transcends parties. And, but legislation gets moved in parliament. Who's going to sponsor? Are you holding this up and waving it to the prime minister and saying this is what you ought to introduce? Or have you got a sympathetic MP who can introduce it? How I just, this, this. The usual problem with you Laurence is brilliant idea, arrestingly articulated, but how does he actually. How does he actually act on it?
Laurence Fox: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's a good question, and it's one that we've been talking about. I think the way to do this is to. I have some good connections with Tory party MPs.
Peter Robinson: I'm sure quite a few of them know who you are by now, yes.
Laurence Fox: Yeah. And my way would be to say, it's, you know. A lot of politics, a lot of life is about selling something, right. So I'm saying this is an appraisal of the law that's, has been introduced possibly actually since 1998. Some of it, some of it goes back to 1986. But is to go here we are. Can I give this to you? Can I give it to you, Mr. I'm not getting to express my views in parliament because our prime minister is too interested in dolphins and wind turbines. Can I, because it's not a political statement. I'm not trying to make a political statement. I'm commissioning with the great benefit that I have of being bequeath or given some money through this, impartial, solid advice on where the problems are existing within the law. And I think I'm going to print that out, and I'm going to take a copy of John Stuart Mill and I'm going to put them together with a piece of ribbon, and I put them in every sixth form college in the country. So, you know, this is not a project that's going to take two years. This is a project that will take 20. And as Jeremy Hosking did say to me, he said, you lose you lose, you lose, you lose, you lose, you lose, you win.
Peter Robinson: Laurence there's a passage that you're very fond of quoting. Comes from East Coker, one of the Four Quartets by T.S. Eliot. This is poetry that he worked on during the war. It talks about humility. The only wisdom we can hope to acquire is the wisdom of humility. But also about the newness of the present. The pattern is new in every moment. Why, why does that passage, humility before the history of Britain, an awareness of the of the new action, the new, new attitude new step required in the present. Why does that matter to you? Is it personal? Is it political?
Laurence Fox: I think it's just life base in the same way as that Psalm 139 really matters to me, you know. But I think it's as use of the word limited, when he says there is, it seems to us at least there's limited value in the knowledge derived from experience. And I, I think that's so wonderful. Because what he's trying to do is. You know, he is trying to bridge the gap between history and the present. And he's trying to say he wants to permit people to make, to make their own path through life. And at the same time, understanding that there is a path that they've come from. You know, he's very obsessed with time Eliot, isn't he as a writer. And he probably did more to, to break down time for a sort of sicko like me, than most people could have done through poetry.
Peter Robinson: Laurence would you, would you end this conversation by reading that passage from East Coker?
Laurence Fox: Sure. There is, it seems to us at best only limited value in then knowledge derived from experience. The knowledge imposes a pattern and falsifies. For the pattern is new in every moment, and every moment is a new and shocking valuation of all that we have been. Do not let me hear of the wisdom of old men, but rather of their folly, their fear of fear and frenzy, their fear of possession, of belonging to another, or to others or to god. The only wisdom we can hope to acquire is the wisdom of humility. Humility is endless. Oh, god he's good isn't he?
Peter Robinson: Laurence Fox. Actor candidate for mayor of London and surely the only political figure on the planet who quotes T.S. Eliot. Thank you.
Laurence Fox: My pleasure. Thank you, Peter.
Peter Robinson: For Uncommon knowledge, the Hoover Institution and Fox Nation, I'm Peter Robinson.
