Mongolia: A Perspective from the Eurasian Heartland

>> H.R. McMaster: America and other free and open societies face crucial challenges and opportunities abroad that affect security and prosperity at home. This is a series of conversations with guests who bring deep understanding of today's battlegrounds and creative ideas about how to compete, overcome challenges, capitalize on opportunities, and secure a better future.

I am H.R. McMaster, this is Battlegrounds.

>> Jenn Henry: On today's episode of Battlegrounds, our focus is on the country of Mongolia, a longtime us partner and NATO partner nation. Our guest is Elbegdorj Tsakai, the former president of Mongolia from 2009 to 2017. Prior to this role, he was a key leader of the Mongolian Democratic Revolution, serving as Mongolia's prime minister in 1998 and again from 2004 to 2006.

Elbegdorj holds a Master of public administration from Harvard University and a bachelor's degree in journalism from Land forces Military Academy of Lviv, Ukraine. He is a pivotal figure in peace and democracy movements across Asia. Elbegdorj spearheaded the establishment of the Asian Partnership for Democracy Initiative, and he serves as commissioner of the International Commission against the Death Penalty.

Patron of the World Sustainability Development Forum, member of the World Leadership Alliance Club de Madrid, and member of the elders. Chinggis Khan pulled together nomadic tribes to form a united Mongolian state in the early 13th century. Following Khans death, his descendants expanded Mongolias domain to eastern Europe, the Middle East, and established the Yuan dynasty in China from 1279 to 1368.

Mongolia fell under Chinese rule from the Manchu Qing dynasty in the 17th century. After the Manchus collapse in 1911, Mongolia declared its independence. But Chinese forces continued to occupy it with soviet military support. Mongolian People's Party Revolutionaries liberated the country from Chinese soldiers in 1921 and established the Mongolian People's Republic in November 1924.

The communist dictator Khorloogiin Choibalsan led Mongolia from 1938 to 1952 in a period of forced collectivization of livestock production. Destruction of Buddhist monasteries, and Stalinist purges which resulted in the murder of approximately 30,000 people, including an estimated 17,000 monks. The Soviet Union executed all Mongolian leaders who did not fulfill Stalin's demands to perform his campaign of red terror.

Imperial Japanese forces aggressed on Mongolia's borders in the 1930s and initiated an undeclared war with a border incursion in 1939. Mongolian and soviet troops repelled the invasion and defeated the japanese 6th army in the Battle of Khalkhin Gol in August of that year. Mongolia and the Soviet Union jointly declared war against Japan in August 1945.

Mongolia did not establish diplomatic relations with Japan until 1972. During the Cold War, a soviet dominated communist regime continued to rule Mongolia in 1990 as the Soviet Union collapsed. Mongolia created an independent democratic system. Two years later, it adopted a new constitution and established a free market economy.

Mongolia has held multi party elections since this period, where the ex communist Mongolian People's Revolutionary Party, now named the Mongolian People's Party, has competed for power primarily within the Democratic Party. Mongolia and the United States established diplomatic ties in 1987 and have a strong history of partnership. Mongolia shares a border with both Russia and China and is a NATO partner nation.

It supported the US led coalition in the Iraq war by deploying troops to the region from 2003 to 2008 and supported coalition operations in Afghanistan for 18 years until the 2021 withdrawal. The United States has supported Mongolias market oriented reforms and the two countries political, cultural, educational and defense cooperation is expanding.

The United States and Mongolia upgraded their bilateral relationship in 2019 to a strategic partnership. We welcome al Baghdur Sakai to discuss Mongolian security concerns. The conflicts in Ukraine and the Middle east, and the continued threat of warfare in the Pacific.

>> H.R. McMaster: President Elbegdorj, welcome, it's wonderful to host you on Battlegrounds, great to see you.

 

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Thank you for inviting me.

>> H.R. McMaster: And thank you for your extraordinary service to humanity over your career. It's just extraordinary and it's a real honor to be with you.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Yeah, you're welcome.

>> H.R. McMaster: Well, there's a lot to talk about, and I think Mongolia has the perfect perspective.

I mean, if I wanted to really understand the world from any spot on earth, I think I'd choose Mongolia and just look around. And of course, if you're looking north, you're going to see a 2,200 miles border with Russia. And so what I'd like to first ask you is you experienced Russian domination, soviet domination, for a long time in your country, and you were one of the key people, if not the key person, to break away from that.

How do you see Russia's behavior across recent decades? Would you mind just explaining to our viewers how you saw Russia kind of fail in a reform effort, Putin consolidate power and then really launch what I think we could all agree as a sustained campaign of aggression and subversion oriented on Europe and the Middle East?

And of course, most dramatically, the full scale invasion of Ukraine in February of 2022.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Mongolia was actually second communist country after Russia, that communism came to Mongolia 1920s. And since then, we were under communism for 70 years after that, the democratic revolution changed, everything happened. Now directly to your questions related with Ukraine, what happened with Ukraine?

I think now Russia is losing. They actually experiencing two big issues. One is Russia is losing almost permanently their ties with Europe. I think that's big loss for Russia. And second, is humiliating and long dependency on China.

>> H.R. McMaster: Yeah.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: That's also something we think about that. And other thing of course, I usually see that in Russia, that kind of the liberal thinking pool is dried out.

 

>> H.R. McMaster: Yeah.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: I think a liberal thinking pool, if there is, I think that's the foundation of any society for open discussion and prosperity. And that's big, big issue related with Ukraine. I actually studied in Ukraine and during my time in military school and I met my wife there.

I have very close connection with Ukraine. I think Ukraine is democracy in European side of Russia, Mongolia's democracy in Asian side of Russia.

>> H.R. McMaster: Yes.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: And we have same destiny. If Ukraine failed, I think that will may Repeated in our region, in Asia. And because of that, from the first day, I have very tough stand supporting Ukraine.

And also, I was calling all those ethnic minorities you know, many ethnic minorities live in Russia, some of them related with Mongols. And I called them, don't go to Ukraine. If there is one man less weapon against Ukraine, it's our contribution to the peace. And when Putin announced that mobilization and I asked them, please come to our country, thousands of them actually escaped through Mongolia, staying in Mongolia.

In terms of the Putin, one thing we have to think about, that no one should repeat what Putin did against Ukraine. No one should do it again. Because of that, we have to unite and fight this evil.

>> H.R. McMaster: Yeah, I think you're making two really important points. One of them is that Putin's not gonna stop, right?

And the internal opposition in Russia is inadequate. But this fits into his pattern of aggression, really, since he took over in the year 2000. But I would say, especially after 2007 with the Munich speech, the attacks on Estonia, the invasion of Georgia, 2008. The assassinations that he has ordered and his intelligence services have carried out, and then, of course, the invasion of Ukraine in 2014.

So people who say, well, we just really need to get a deal with Putin. We need to give him an off ramp. I don't think Putin sees anything like that as an off ramp. It's just an opportunity to get onto the next on ramp. And the other point that you're making is that the stakes are high for Ukrainians, obviously, but they're higher for everyone.

 

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Yeah.

>> H.R. McMaster: Including Mongolia and so I'd like to just transition into your assessment of how strong you think Russia and Putin are. I think these authoritarian regimes, they look quite strong-

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Yes.

>> H.R. McMaster: From the outside but you mentioned to ethnic minorities in Russia, there's probably gonna be a secession of some kind in Chechnya, for example.

 

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Yeah.

>> H.R. McMaster: Kadyrov is getting older. His son is only 18 years old. Of course, Russia has essentially annexed Belarus. But there was a democracy movement in Belarus as well.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Yes.

>> H.R. McMaster: When you look across the former soviet states in Central Asia, do you see Russian power and influence getting stronger or weaker?

 

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: One thing regarding Belarus, for example, Putin wanted to be Ukraine as a Belarus. But Ukrainians say we want to be as Ukrainians. We want to have our freedom, we want to have connection with Europe. And because of that, I think mainly punished by Putin now, other thing I would like to say that related with Ukraine and related with your question, that power issue.

I think Putin is really tested after this 2022 invasion, his military, his everything actually tested in a battlefield openly. When we see that. I know I studied there in military school. I know I thought Russia has a formidable, very powerful army, and they can go, they can invade Ukraine in 18 days.

But it didn't happen. And when you test that, when that authoritarian regime tested, you will see that shadow behind it. And I think now we are all seeing that. Not that such powerful, that russian army and that structure, everything. And because of that, I think, I usually say that if Putin defeated there, it will be also.

We will win everywhere. We will win in China. I mean, we means the freedom lounge people, good part of the world. We will win in Latin America. Those autocrats will be discouraged. That movement for freedom will take new stride, new wave. And that's really, really important. It's not only between two countries, war.

It's, I think, war between, we all say that, democracy and autocracy. Yeah.

>> H.R. McMaster: President Obadorsh, you also mentioned earlier that Russia and China are becoming closer and closer. I mean, I think for our viewers, it's worth reminding everyone about the joint statement that the two leaders.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Yes.

 

>> H.R. McMaster: Issued just weeks before the invasion of Ukraine in which they talked about their partnership with no limits. It's come to light as the United States is supporting now Ukraine. Thank goodness after a long delay with renewed arms and other support for Ukraine. It's become clear the degree to which Russia has become reliant on China for buying more of their energy exports.

 

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Yes.

>> H.R. McMaster: To feed Putin's atm that he needs to fund the war, but also with hardware and components that are essential for Russia to continue its onslaught against the Ukrainian people. How do you see that relationship with Russia and China? There are some people who argue we ought to try to divide them, but I think that they're indivisible at this moment with these two leaders at the top.

 

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Yes while I served as prime minister and president in my country, I met many times with Xi Jinping and Putin. And also we have the trilateral meeting also we had many times, and Shanghai Cooperation Organization, heads of state meeting. And I had many interactions with them. And I have no illusion about Putin or Xi Jinping.

I think, of course, that partnership without limits, that will go. But China, they know that what is the weak side of Russia? How they go for trading with Russia or cooperating with Russia. They know that limits, they exactly know all those things. Also how to deal with the other parts of world.

And I think China is more calculating. Putin has no other options almost. That's today's situation.

>> H.R. McMaster: Well, I'd like to ask you then maybe we looked north toward Russia. We looked south toward China now. And could you describe, really, the recent actions or the motivations of the Chinese Communist Party?

We've seen a series of aggressive acts laying claim to the ocean, the South China Sea. The Philippines is bearing the brunt of that Vietnam has before. You've seen the ramming and sinking of vessels. From India's perspective, they saw the bludgeoning of Indian soldiers to death on the Himalayan frontier.

And then, of course, Taiwan and Japan's Senkaku have been the object of a great deal of military intimidation. What is driving the Chinese communist party, and how do you see the trajectory of these sort of series of aggressive acts?

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: China is very different country. Comparing 40 years ago China, when they started that opening policy with the Denzel pin and others.

I think in the last 40 years, I think one country most benefited from open policy, most benefited from the international, today's international order. That's the China.

>> H.R. McMaster: Yeah.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Now, China has a five times mightier economy than Soviet Union, and now we all know that. In terms of the military that ill equipped, personal heavy land army, they now have capacity to fight on land, sea, in the air, space, even in cyber domain.

And also China, in last 20 years, they registered more patents combined US or Japan. And they are really becoming big player, I think almost equal by the economic might to the USA. And now there are two big countries. When those equals fight small things, minor things, makes big difference, and we have to look at that.

And Mongolia is only democracy. I was president.

>> H.R. McMaster: An island of democracy.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Island of democracy, I call it the democratic anchor in the east. And first time when in June 1990, James Baker visited Mongolia as secretary of state, he said, you have two neighbors, America can be your third neighbor.

After that, we got that third neighbor concept and we are trying to balance our relations between Russia and China and with other countries. And because of that, I think we know a lot about China, Russian issues, and our country's strategic importance is increased a lot, yeah.

>> H.R. McMaster: All right, so what does China want?

You saw the rollout just in recent months of the global security initiative. We've seen China try to rewrite the rules of international discourse from an economic and a financial perspective, even an informational perspective and communications perspective. What drives and constrains Xi Jinping? Can you give us insights into his ideology, maybe his emotions?

What is it that he's trying to achieve?

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: The president, Xi Jinping so far announced five big initiatives. One you mentioned, and we all know that starting from the Belt and Road Initiative and all the way to that global security initiative and those five initiatives. I think China wants to test everywhere.

China wants to confront that world order, and China wants to change in their way. All those, including the United nations, world order, everything. Now China is almost controlling all the supply chain, logistics, everything. I think more countries depended on China than any other countries now. But free world has one enduring thing.

I usually say that America, other countries maybe can offer fast cars and good wines, but America offers freedom. That's the big difference. If you stick with that issue, freedom, offering freedom and sharing your experiences, that's really great. I think American strength, rule of law, education, military, freedom, believing in God, all those things make big difference.

And this competition will continue on, this will go further, further, further. But I said, when you two equals compete, I think minor things make big difference. And because of that, you have to look at that, those minor things. How can you get some edge upper hand, that's very important thing.

 

>> H.R. McMaster: Well, these are really important points, President Elbegdorj, when I talk to our friends across Asia, Southeast Asia, other places, oftentimes the issue is framed as a competition between Washington and Beijing. And the point that I try to make is, hey, it's not a competition between Washington and Beijing, it's really a choice between sovereignty and servitude.

How do you see that competition playing out? Are more countries recognizing that? I think certainly the Philippines has, with President Marcos now there with a much more realistic view of the dangers associated with accommodating China's hegemonic designs and desires in the region. How do you see it playing out really in Asia in particular?

 

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: One thing in Asia also, elsewhere, I think Chinese, those rights, those competitions, those rules determined by their government, by the Chinese Communist Party party. But in a free world, that actually determines by the people, by the people's choice, that's very different. I just recently, two years ago, I was in Munich security conference, and they had a big polling.

There was in 15, more than 20 countries had a wide, big polling. And they asked that a way of life in China or Putin's way of life, which dictates Putin or Xi Jinping, would you like to live with that life or with that way of life? No one country, almost no one say that we would like to live with that.

 

>> H.R. McMaster: All right.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: That's big thing, I think people, they made that their choice, as you say, that, under dictatorship, under servitude to someone, nobody wants to leave that. When Mongolia chose democracy, we chose democracy not only as a value, but we chose democracy, way to live independently, way to keep our sovereignty.

Democracy is not only the political establishment in Mongolia, it equals to our sovereignty, it equals to our independence. We see like that, and many other countries see that.

>> H.R. McMaster: President Elbegdorj, I hope everybody listens to you. Because, as you know, we have a tendency toward, you know, self criticism, which can be positive, but sometimes it turns into sort of self flagellation here in the west.

And I think it's important for us to celebrate the great gifts that we have in our free and open societies.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Yes.

>> H.R. McMaster: Of course, there are some kindred spirits in the other camp, the axis of authoritarians, or I think they're actually an axis of aggressors these days.

You have obviously, the partnership with no limits that we've been discussing between Russia and China. But Iran is even, I think, a more significant player now than it has been in a long time. I think US policies have something to do with that. I think we made the mistake in recent years of accommodating Iran and at least not enforcing the sanctions that had been really prevalent in the Trump administration.

But also, Iran's relationship with Russia is quite close now with the provision of these drones, the Shahed drones that are being used for the onslaught against Ukraine. I'm sure Iran is getting a lot of help in return, military and other help, maybe with their missile program, maybe with their nuclear program.

What is your view of this Iranian, Russian, Chinese relationship, and is it dangerous, do you think, to the world?

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Yes, it's dangerous. And there is, in our area in Asia, we tend to believe in wisdom more, wisdom usually comes from experiences. I think President Hur's legacy, Don't abandon your own experiences and learn from.

From that, I think that's great wisdom. And we have to learn what we did with China, how our relations evolved with Russia, even with Iran. I think when we talk about today's issues, we sometimes have to look how those leaders, how there were some intense relations between those countries, how they dealt with that.

And from that, you will see a lot of things, a lot of wisdom. And Cuz of that, when we face some challenge, we usually think about our experiences, our ancestors, what they told us. Mongolia was one time big, empire, biggest land empire ever existed on the earth. And I sent to you that map of Mongolia one time when President Putin talked about map things, I actually posted on X Mongolian great empire map.

After Putin, President Putin's talk, I found that, but today, Mongolia is peaceful nation. We are, have no intention to extend, to claim our old map, and that took almost 12 million hits on X. And means u have to learn from experiences, one time I visited Iran when I was President, I met Al Khamenei.

When he shook my hand, he said, we are grateful for Mongols, and I asked why. And he said, in 13th century, Mongols actually made the Shia religion, main religion in our area. Mongols actually controlled that region for two centuries during that time. And the Mongols built the observatories, Mongols built the libraries, Mongols built hospitals, and they brought new order to that region that existed for two centuries.

We know that, how they dealt with that, they were very respectful for their religious belief, they were very respectful to their, national identities. We usually say that if you are head of state, maybe you're. You have two hands. One is like a eagle's-

>> H.R. McMaster: Talon.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Yeah. And eagle's cloth.

And other is like your mother hand.

>> H.R. McMaster: Right.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: You have to use two those things. Not one size or not one approach fits to all. Because of that, you have to use helping hand. You have to use that negotiating hand. You have to use that understanding hand and open when it comes to power or something.

You might use other hand also, I think America has that ability, and you have that, and that's complex issue, and that's big threat, you mentioned that cooperation.

>> H.R. McMaster: Well, I think in recent years, the Biden administration has tried the mother's hand with Iran. Right. And it got the Eagle's Claw in return.

How do you see the trajectory of this conflict across the Middle East? The one beginning, with the October 7, 2023, horrible mass murder attacks against Israel, the subsequent operations in Gaza, that created a great deal of suffering among the Palestinian people. I tend to trace that back to Hamas, I think knew what would be coming there, but what we've seen is the crisis cascade around Israel.

In the West Bank, across the border into Lebanon, in Syria, where Iran is forming a proxy army, essentially the Houthis shutting down or interdicting or disrupting trade. And the Bab el Mandeb and the Straits of the Red Sea, and then also the militias in Iraq, It seems like the whole region's on fire.

How do you see the trajectory of the conflict in the Middle east, and what are you most concerned about?

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: I belong to one of the most exclusive and respected club in the world, which is that the elders that was founded by the Nelson Mandela. There are twelve elders, I'm one of them.

When that July terror act happened in Israel,

>> H.R. McMaster: October.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Yeah, we sent our people there. So far we had two missions. We issued five statements and three letters to the President Biden, how to deal with this issue, and we listen all sides and we try to be impartial in this issue.

Most important thing, how to deal with this, I think international rule of law, you have to respect that. And also that collective punishment is not good idea. I think you have to differentiate who committed that horrible act against people and, but those people and children or all those innocent people.

And there are a lot of things actually tangled in this issue. I think religious and even tribal issues, geopolitics, and politics, even the Prime Minister Netanyahu, has own politics, I think. When they had that problem, there was polling and most of the people actually blamed Prime Minister Netanyahu, what happened in Israel and all those things.

But in that one great player, that's the America, that's President Biden. How Biden handled this issue, that's very important. I think how he approaches to talk with the Prime Minister Netanyahu and also other sides that Iran, Iraq and other involved sides, how to deal with that. That's complex issue, and I hope, he will handle it, and us administration.

Yeah, coming incoming or every administration, I think they will face it, and that's complex issue. There is no one answer, we can say that. But international rule of law is very, important. We usually stand on that.

>> H.R. McMaster: Right. And an organization that doesn't pay any attention to rule of law is Hamas and other jihadist terrorist organizations.

I'd like to just ask you about how concerned you are about transnational terrorism and in particular the situation in Central Asia, where you have a tremendous perspective, especially after the US. I think horrible self defeat and withdrawal from Afghanistan. The degree to which these organizations have gained strength in Afghanistan, in the border region of Pakistan.

And we've seen really ISIS and other related groups, al Qaeda and other groups, become a greater threat. Is this something that you were concerned about when you were president, and how do you see Jihadist terrorism now internationally?

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Yes, we concerned a lot, and when that 911 happened, Mongolia joined to the coalition of willing.

We send our men and women in uniform to Iraq.

>> H.R. McMaster: I served alongside them, they're wonderful soldiers.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Yes, and they stayed there for 18 years, and also So our peacekeepers served in Afghanistan, in Sudan. We have big contingent of our peacekeepers and we have that tradition, respect our service people and also we regard them and we really support even Mongolia is by the population is a small country, by the contribution to the world peace by the peacekeepers.

It's one of the 20 largest peacekeeper contributors in the world. And we always try to keep it that international rule of law, order and freedom, and with that values, and we stand with you and always, always. And we will do that further. And also, even Mongolia is sandwiched between Russia and China and locked there.

But we have a big example. When there is light, you can see that light. When there is darkness, you can see that light from very far. And Mongolia's example of the democratic transition, that's the light in our area. Mongolia is only vibrant democracy since 1990 between Russia and China, in that region.

And after, I think I usually say that we have nothing to teach to others, but we have something to share with others. And when I was president, I invited those people from Kyrgyzstan and others, people from Myanmar, people from Afghanistan, those civil service people, and they come to Mongolia.

How to deal with this transition, how to deal with the mining issue, for example, how to deal with the governance issue, how to deal with the corruption, all those things. We actually try to share our experiences, and most of them say that you guys, your experience is more down earthed, more practical.

 

>> H.R. McMaster: Absolutely.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: We can learn from you, means that keeping that liberal establishment democracy, freedom in Mongolia, it's very, very important, that value that strategic value actually increasing. And also, I would like to say there are more Mongols living in China than in Mongolia. There are 5 million Mongols living China, and there are more than 1 million Mongols living in Russia.

And worldwide there are 10 million Mongols. I am the president of the World Mongol Federation. I am serving for their interest. And Mongolia was one time that big country. And we have a big ambition, big heart, and we know every superpower during that time, during every time, they have a big responsibility.

During that time, we had that responsibility. We learned from our history a lot, of course, we strive for the greater future. And also we face some challenges in Mongolia dealing with all those issues

>> H.R. McMaster: I'd like to ask you about that. So when these leaders would come to you, would you please maybe explain to our viewers or talk with our viewers about your personal experience, your advocacy for shifting Mongolia away from an authoritarian form of government, a communist form of government, toward a free market economy and a democracy that has succeeded, right?

Explain how Mongolia did it, maybe, and include elements of your personal experience and advocacy for change in the nature of government.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Not every transition actually resulted in success in democracy. And I studied in Soviet Union between 1983 1988. That was the interesting time that perestroika, everything started there and I learned a lot.

And from that I came back to my country and we thought with the like minded young people, we have to make big changes in Mongolia. Mongolian transition, Mongolian democratic revolution. I think it has some unique features. First is, it was total peaceful, total peaceful transition. We did not shatter single window.

And also that transition happened at the same time in political transition, economic transition, social transition. In Asia, people think that, first you open up your economy a little bit, maybe political transition later, but we did it at the same time and we chose parliamentary democracy. Many countries chose presidential one, they became autocrats, we chose parliamentary democracy, it requires more institutional development, more discussions within the people.

And most importantly, it was our own, our people owned movement that was really important. It started in a late months of the 1989 almost, yeah, at the same time when Berlin Wall, everything fall there that actually started that ice broke in a cold winter, in a cold month, December in 1989.

I was moderator of that first demonstration, anti-communist demonstration. Since then, I involved in this struggle, now for 35 years. I am dedicating and my legacy, my life purpose, to make my country free and to keep my people free. And I'm trying to do that, I'm trying to contribute to that and that peaceful thing, and all those choices were very important.

 

>> H.R. McMaster: Well, there's a great deal of concern these days about democracies that are backsliding into autocracies. And of course, reforms failed in a number of countries, I mean, most notably, Russia. And of course China's paid attention and has learned what they think are the lessons from 1989 and 1990, which is to extend and tighten the party's grip on power.

Are you optimistic about the trajectory of democracy? Many people, I think, are very pessimistic about it these days.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Yeah, I'm optimistic. I'm optimistic because best hope is our people. Best hope is our young generation. Since 1990, we got one generation, now in their 40s and 30s, they know that what is democracy, what like to live in a free country, living by your choice.

In Mongolia, they're saying that it's maybe sweeter to live under someone's choice, but maybe, however sour, it's better to live by your choice. That's our saying. And because of that, and we tend to live freely there. And that's one thing. Other thing, of course, taking care of democracy, taking care of your governance, it's everyday job.

For example, related with the corruption issue. You have to tackle this issue every day.

>> H.R. McMaster: Absolutely.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: During my time, there was our corruption index was very high when I entered my office, 120 by Transparency International, when I worked. For five years that dropped to the 70. We advanced, I think one of the biggest threat to democracy is corruption.

 

>> H.R. McMaster: Absolutely.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Bad governance. I think it happened with Soviet Union. It happened with the big powers. It's happening today with any country which we are experiencing.

>> H.R. McMaster: Afghanistan down there.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Yeah, Afghanistan and everything. You have to address that issue. I usually say that, it's like a changing every morning the diaper for your babies.

 

>> H.R. McMaster: Yeah.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: It's every morning and every day. Business.

>> H.R. McMaster: Right.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Not the one time business, not the one political party's business. Also, it should not be selective. It should not be kind of the selective justice or selective. Usually some people use that. Some leaders use that in a selective ways and they fail.

 

>> H.R. McMaster: Right.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: And you have to address it truly and serve to your country. And I usually also, from my experience, I see those politicians. I think when those politicians enter to politics, we have to look at what time they entered to their service to the politics and what aim they had in during 1990s.

We entered to the politics with clean mind. We need bring the independence to our country. We need to bring freedom to our people and means that we are responsible what we chose and now hold my country hall. My nation is responsible because of that Mongolia is resilient. Other thing, of course, technology.

In terms of the technology in Mongolia, we use all social media, all those technological advancement. We use that in the herdsmen on the horseback asking what is the price Kashmir in UB, that's the technology. In terms of the use of technology, we are equal in terms of the technology development.

We are now experiencing kind of the renaissance time, in terms of sharing knowledge, sharing information, how far your country, how you are sandwiched or within superpower. Through that, you can connect with the other people. And that also gives us more additional leverage.

>> H.R. McMaster: Right, well, and of course, you need effective leadership, which you provided to your country, and I really admire you for that.

I'd like to ask you what your advice might be for young people today. We've seen in recent months, these protests on us campuses. Many of them have turned to, pro Hamas, maybe even pro Iran protests and anti American protests. And one of the things that concerns me is sort of the curriculum in some of our universities have been largely influenced by various post modernist and postcolonial theories that amount to almost a curriculum of self loathing.

And I think what people have maybe lost sight of is the degree to which we're fortunate to live in a free and open and democratic society and where we share and enjoy rule of law, representative government. We have a say in how we're governed. And I feel as if a lot of this orthodoxy in the academy robs young people of agency, right?

It puts the words institutional and structural in front of every problem and teaches them that the whole system is against you. So having experienced what you experienced living under an authoritarian regime, leading a movement for freedom and democracy. Leading your country through that transitional period, to consolidate, really the strength of your institutions and to succeed in those reforms.

What would your message be to young Americans and maybe others in western democratic countries?

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Recently, I was at West Point. They invited me, and I met those cadets, and they also asked the same question. Are you really encouraged? I think you have a great future. When I saw those curriculum, when people talk about that character development.

 

>> H.R. McMaster: Yeah.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Leadership development, I told them one thing. Everything starts with you.

>> H.R. McMaster: Yeah.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Don't try to blame others. Think about yourself, how you are doing. In Mongolia, we say that you have to take care of yourself first. After that, you may take care of your family.

 

>> H.R. McMaster: And your horse. Your horse, too.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Yeah, and your horse. And also your community.

>> H.R. McMaster: That's right. That's right.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Everything starts with you.

>> H.R. McMaster: Yeah.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: And exercise little bit patience, little bit wisdom, and sharing with others your ideas. And that's really, really important. And still I'm learning.

Everyone learns for whole life, even how old, how young you are, you are learning. And one thing freedom offers, one thing is freedom is good. I think there are always space to learn. If you make mistake in Russia or in China, if you say something bad thing or action that might cost your life, that might cost you are staying, going to jail.

But in a free countries, in a freedom in a democracy, that's the learning experience. You may make mistake, but you can learn from that and keep that experience alive. And that's very important. And everything starts with you. And think about that and always think about that. And that usually my message to the young people.

 

>> H.R. McMaster: Well, President Albertorge, I can't think of a better way to wrap up this discussion with what you just said. But I wonder if you might have some final words for our viewers about your experience and what you think we should learn from your experience.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: I was born and raised in a Herzmann family, and I have seven brothers.

My parents have eight children, all of them are boys. I'm the youngest one. And means that you have to be patient. You have to interact your brothers, you have to learn from others. And also you have to appreciate every way where you born. You may born in a fortunate family or you may born in a less fortunate ones.

But you have to appreciate that. But other thing, in Mongolia, in our tradition, mothers, girls, sisters are the really, really important part of our life. In Mongolian tradition, we respect, we think that our mother is like a God like person. We always listen to our mother, we always follow mother.

We always look for wisdom for our mother. Of course, father is important. Father is taking care of everything, security and finding all those finances and everything, keeping that family. But mother is really important. Even during Genghis, even though he invaded that big wasteland, he always bowed in front of his mother.

Always listened to his mother. I think one of the secret source of Genghis success was listening to others, to his mother, and to respect that better part of ours. I think if you support them, if you listen to your mother, I think you're gonna be successful. You learn from your mother, from your parents, and you will be successful.

 

>> H.R. McMaster: Well, you've given us great advice about the importance of individual agency, the importance of family. And also, I think from our conversation, viewers might glean something about the strength of our common humanity. We often want to talk about what's different among us, and categorize people by different identity categories, but we have this common humanity, and I know that you are humanitarian yourself.

Would you mind explaining to our viewers why you took on foster parenthood and your experience in that, and the rewards associated with it. And the tremendous effect you had on really tens of people's lives as a result?

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Thank you, thank you for asking. I think, I usually say to others, if you preach to others, if you say something to others, you have to do yourself.

If you think about good governance issue, if you think about corruption, bad, you have to, don't involve in that. You have to try live in your life, even in your family, even nobody seen, even in darkness, you have to exercise that good side of yourself when you teach or preach to others.

And of course, I raised in a family that a lot of children with my wife, and I think we need to, if you make difference, one child's life, one children's life, or one family life, that's good, and you have to share. And we adopted more than 30 children, we have our own 4 children.

And one time, Time Magazine actually wrote like that, the president who has most children in the world.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: And now they are grown up, by them, we are rich people, and helping them. And they call us mother and father, and our half heart with them. And when you have any possibility, anything, you have to share that.

And through that also, people look at this, and people also tend to copy good things. If their power, if those leaders have a good things, usually other people copy that.

>> H.R. McMaster: Yes.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Other people try to follow that. If America offers more freedom, more security to others, also other countries follow that.

It's same as a country or family or leader. And usually, if you have one good quality, others also encouraged by your activity, your quality, and that's very important, means that you have to exercise what you say to people. You have to do it in your real life.

>> H.R. McMaster: Well, President Albert George, on behalf of the Hoover Institution, thank you so much.

For not only helping us learn about the accomplished challenges and opportunities we're facing today, but how we can work together to build a better future. It's been a real honor.

>> Elbegdorj Tsakahia: Thank you very much.

>> H.R. McMaster: Thank you so much.

>> Jenn Henry: Battlegrounds is a production of the Hoover Institution, where we generate and promote ideas advancing freedom.

For more information about our work, to hear more of our podcasts or view our video content, please visit hoover.org.