A Conversation with Richie McCaw: Life Lessons from Rugby 

>> H.R. McMaster: America, and other free and open societies, face crucial challenges and opportunities abroad, that affect security and prosperity at home. This is a series of conversations with guests, who bring deep understanding of today's battlegrounds. And creative ideas, about how to compete, overcome challenges, capitalize on opportunities, and secure a better future.

I am HR McMaster, this is Battlegrounds.

>> Jenn Henry: On today's special episode of Battlegrounds, our focus is on rugby, and what it teaches us about leadership and teamwork. Our guest is Richie McCaw, the former captain of New Zealand's national rugby team, the All Blacks. Over a 15 year career, McCall played a record 148 matches with an 89% winning record.

He captained 110 games, including two Rugby World Cup victories, and was three time international rugby player of the year. McCall was inducted into the World Rugby Hall of Fame in 2019, and named World Rugby Player of the decade. McCall is widely regarded as one of the greatest rugby captains in history.

From the middle ages, England has been home to localized, informal football games, each with unique rules. According to legend, in 1823, a student, William Webb Ellis at the rugby school in England ran with a ball, in disregard of the rules at a school football game, and the game of rugby was born.

Interest and participation in the new game spread. The first officially recognized code of laws, was established in 1871, forming the Rugby Football Union. In 1880, Walter Camp, proposed alternative rules which led to the modern game of American football. In 1895, 22 teams in Northern England broke away from the Rugby Football Union, who wished to be paid for playing.

A rival professional version of the game emerged, named Rugby League. Rugby Union however, remained a purely amateur sport for another 100 years. The sport spread throughout the UK to Europe, Africa, North and South America, Australia and New Zealand. Regular competitions developed among rugby playing nations, and deep traditions emerged.

Foundational rivalries among nations as well as among universities, rugby clubs and schools, established the rugby community. At the outbreak of World War I, around 90% of rugby players across England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, France, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa enlisted. And 127 international players were killed in action.

Rugby has remained loyal to the long held ethos that it is not only played by the laws of the game, but also within the spirit of the laws. The rugby spirit creates a fellowship and sense of fair play, that are a defining part of the game. Today, more than 10 million men and women across 128 countries play rugby.

The Rugby World Cup is contended every four years. New Zealand's All Blacks beat France at the inaugural Rugby World cup in 1987, on the eve of the 2023 Rugby World Cup in Paris, we welcome Richie McCaw, to discuss the state of rugby. And the lessons the sport offers for developing leaders, fostering teamwork, strengthening communities, and building a better future.

 

>> H.R. McMaster: Richie McCaw, welcome to Battlegrounds. Hey, what a pleasure it is to have you on this program. I've admired your play, and your leadership for a long time. Great to have you.

>> Richie McCaw: Thank you for having us. Yeah, it's a real privilege to be on.

>> H.R. McMaster: Hey, well, we got a lot to talk about, right?

Because I think there's a heck of a lot the world can learn from rugby, and can learn from the All Blacks and can learn from your experience. So, I'd like to just jump right in on this and talk about really, how do you think you develop a culture of excellence?

I mean, the All Blacks record is phenomenal, right? And you joined essentially a living historical community in which players, to use your words, own the jersey, leave it in a better place than you found it. I find that a lot like the military, right? You inherit, a legacy of excellence from those who have gone before you, and then you feel like it's your duty to build on it.

But can you talk more about that, how to create a culture that's committed to excellence, like the All Blacks?

>> Richie McCaw: One of the things you talk about legacy is that New Zealand rugby's the number one game. It's been that since, the original black team, which toured the UK in 1905.

And I guess if you go right back to that point, a lot of the men that went back to play in that 1905 were sort of first generation had come from the UK. And then they went back to play against the home country and did pretty well. And I guess that was the start of something that was unique to New Zealand.

And throughout the years, it was amateur right up until 1996. I guess it represented the men that sort of forged their way in New Zealand that had arrived here. And obviously, the local Mori people that native to New Zealand had taken the game of rugby on. And it was a unique, I guess, blend that had had success throughout the years.

So when I arrived in 2001 to play for the All Blacks, obviously I'd watched all through my younger years wanting to watch the All Blacks play. And then eventually the dream of playing, there's kind of 100 years of success that had gone. And it was one part of it was quite intimidating, but the other part was exciting.

You got a chance to be in the team and put on the black jersey, which I was obviously New Zealand, a symbol of something that we're all hugely proud of. So, a lot of that was done through there. But the big trap I suppose is you just expect you put on the jersey and you're gonna be bulletproof and it's all gonna take care of itself.

You still gotta make sure that when you're there, your behaviors, and your attitudes, and the training, it's all those things you've gotta do dead right to live up to what's expected. Through the years I was there, one of the things that it was easy to assume that people coming in, they might have a bit of an idea of what the legacy and what's expected.

But actually, the people that are there actually make sure you show the new people what was expected, how to do it. And ensure that, as you say, that your time in the jersey is only short compared to the whole legacy. But if you can leave it in a better place, you've done something that everyone else has done in the years gone by.

And we always say the people change, the actual jersey changes, but what never changes, it's the black jersey or the silver fern that represents many, many people that have gone before. And I think just taking that, but actually adding your flavor, the group, you've got to look at how you can be successful, isn't just something that happens.

And so, yeah, there's all sorts of things we used to try and do to ensure that. That culture of excellence and striving to be the best, not just sometimes, every time, was hugely important, and that sort of becomes the norm. So if you say not winning this week's okay, that was never something that even entered our mind.

So I guess those are the sort of attitudes and the history of the All Blacks that was important to what you've just described.

>> H.R. McMaster: Richie, I think about how the warrior ethos, right? It's the most essential element for combat prowess, right? Your ability to fight and win in battle.

And, yeah, I think it really comes from this covenant that you have among members of the team in which you're bound together by a sense of honor, right? You're not gonna let the soldier on your left or right down. And then also this covenant, right? Around these kind of principles, these values of courage and the sense of duty to one another and to your country.

And could you talk a little bit about how All Blacks build cohesion, build that kind of that mutual confidence in one another and how that relates to the prowess on the pitch?

>> Richie McCaw: One of the things about rugby which it's probably got some similarities to, say in the military, is that you can't do it on your own.

You've got to rely on, you got your 15 positions out in the field. You need to all do your different roles that works together to be successful. If you try and do it on your own and you have 15 people do it on their own, you go off in different directions, you're never gonna have success.

So, I always said when you put on the jersey and go out and play alongside your teammates, who are you actually doing it for? And I used to come back to the thing I was doing it for is make sure that the men beside me trusted that I do my job.

And if we all thought about how we earn the guy, besides his trust, it's about consistency and doing the work, so you turn up and you get your job done. And if you have a group that are all striving to do that, you're gonna have a cohesive unit.

That all, I guess, the team and the success of where you wanna go ahead of your individual egos or whatever comes to it. And we used to talk a lot about that, it's buying into making sure that the team is successful. And whoever it is that gets the privilege to put the jersey on whatever number you're wearing each week, you go and perform your role to, as I say, contribute your, but I think that made a huge impact on guys.

That digging into what I can do to actually contribute to this team. And then the other thing is actually talking about where the team wanted to go, how good does the team wanna be? And if you set your sights too low, people are gonna go, well, it's all right, just turn up or take a shortcut today.

But if you're actually really going into do things that are hard and tough and then it gets people sitting forward on their seat and they're gonna go, man, this makes me a little bit uncomfortable. I'm not sure what's gonna happen, but we're aiming to get to this place, so we all need to do our but to get there.

And I think there's that mentality that's important, but then there's the ability to be able to, as you say, the physical battle of being able to do it over and over and not get caught out or not, just turn up and hope it's gonna happen, has been able to be on every single time.

Cuz you've got a bunch of guys trying to stop you doing that, that takes a deep. I guess it's gotta come from within to go, actually, I really wanna make sure that I don't get caught out here. And, as I say, let down the guys beside you. That's what the intrigue certainly, for me was, to be able to get yourself in a state to deal with the physical and the combat side of the game, but also the mentality of making sure you can do it over and over again.

And do it when it counts and make sure you've got a team that all can do that. That's the bit that I think rugby was certainly intriguing, and I think that's what we had some ups and downs, certainly early in my career, but we started to see the reward of putting time and effort into addressing all those areas.

 

>> H.R. McMaster: Yeah, Richie, I think we just talked about in terms of common trust, mutual trust, common purpose an organization. It's really what leads to really that kind of cohesion and the unwillingness to let each other down. In this book, The Face of Battle, John Keegan wrote that, hey, what battles have in common is human.

He wrote a book about across five centuries, and he said, hey, I saw changes as I saw battles in this one area in Belgium, really, where they focused on. But what I saw most was continuities and he writes that the battle is about the disintegration of human groups.

And I think a lot of what we're talking about is, you don't want your group to disintegrate, you wanna disintegrate your opposition. And a lot of the way you do that is the way you lead an organization. Can you talk a little bit more about that? And you were captain for, I think, 110 matches, right?

And when you came in as a leader of an elite organization with this legacy of excellence, how did you foster that kind of continued commitment to excellence, and how did you keep that kind of cohesion, right? That allows you to be successful?

>> Richie McCaw: I think the first thing, I didn't just have it figured out from day one, obviously, I got made captain.

I was only 25 at the time and I'd been playing some good rugby, but just cuz I was playing good rugby didn't mean I had the leadership side sorted out. And it went quite well for the first little period. And then we went to a WorldCup in 2007.

We had a talented team and we turned up. And the pressure in a quarterfinal when we had a team that was on fire against us, we just disintegrated. Just like you say, we all looked at each other rabbit in the headlights, and when you're standing there as captain feeling like that yourself going, I actually don't know what to do, or I would help this feel.

It's a pretty horrible feeling to have. And it wasn't cuz we didn't have the ability, it wasn't cuz we didn't had the skills, but it was pressure caused us to start questioning those things and start trying to go individual, all those little things that cracks, that you hope don't pop up.

When it all came down to it. So that was a quite a learning process to go, what is it that we were missing? And it was being able to deal with those big moments when it's uncomfortable and four years of work comes down to that one day, and are you gonna be able to execute your skills on that day?

And I guess that's where leadership comes in, is to go, well, don't be afraid of those situations. If you wanna be successful, we're gonna have to go and face those situations. And actually, rather than hoping they're not gonna come, actually expect them to come and go, okay, are we gonna have the tools in our box to deal with them?

And I think it starts, as you say, with the captain and then the senior group. We had to first of all understand what happens in those situations and then what we can actually do about it. And it wasn't just clicking the fingers and go, we've got it mastered now.

It was actually, how do we work on skills, techniques, ways of looking at it, attitudes to these moments that obviously filtered down to the rest of the team so that we can not so much nothing. Feel the pressure or feel those things that we can wobble, but actually how do we stay tight and hang in there and find a way to get the result we're after?

And I think in answering your question about myself, the first one is I had to make sure I had my performance spot on so the attitude I had around getting better. So it wasn't just cuz I was captain now and I was looking at everyone else expecting them to better.

I had to show the example of how I'm getting better every week, what my behaviors are like, so how I turn up to training, how I do all the little things. So I had to get that spot on and then it was about not having all the answers myself, but actually having a group of especially senior players, a way of making sure that we all contributed so that when it got tough.

We had people all come out with solutions and hanging in there to ensure that we didn't have to wait till the result had gone the wrong way to say, there was an opportunity or something we missed. We needed guys in the moment to be thinking like that and I guess I saw my role, rather than having all the answers, is actually making sure I had a group that would contribute and start asking questions of them.

And whoever a solution came from or an idea that we, if that's the right one, we will getting behind it and I think having a group like that united, when it gets tough, you can look each other in the eye. You don't necessarily need words, you just know that, hey, look, we've been here before, or we've talked about this.

This is the moments we've expected and we just need to hang in here and you gotta remember, you gotta team on the other side that they'll be feeling it as well. And if we can just push enough where they start to fold, there's nothing more satisfying than seeing that when you're in a wrestle and you start to see them crack.

I tell you, that's the bit that I really loved and in some ways, it went from not necessarily wanting to be in those real wrestles to actually wanting to be there just to see how the opposition reacted and seeing them start to crumble and.

>> H.R. McMaster: When you push that mall across the try line, it's a good feeling.

 

>> Richie McCaw: Yeah, absolutely and just saying, body language. I used to think quite a lot about how I could lead just with body language. So when things are starting to become Rocky, if I look like I'm starting to get Rocky with it, that's not a great. So, I used to think a lot about in those moments, standing and commanding your spot with your right body language, how you speak, where you put your eyes, how you talk to your ref or your teammates or look the opposition like little things like that.

I think I started to work in.

>> H.R. McMaster: And your book, Richie, which is excellent, you talk about your reflection, this period of time, and you wrote all these questions to yourself about how you could get better as a leader. I thought that was tremendous in terms of that, your self reflection in that period of time, too.

 

>> Richie McCaw: Well, I think, as I said, I mentioned 2007 you've got a choice, I had a choice at that point. And you could just say, it's not fair, and blame why you had a result that didn't go your way, or you use that as a learning. What I found is when you sort of go, okay, I wanna learn and get better I realize I'm not nowhere near the finished article.

Amazing what people will wanna help, and if you get a little bit vulnerable, it's amazing the things that you can go. I didn't want to address that, but now I have, I go, man, this has made things so much easier. Or I wasn't a big one initially for those sort of things, but it sort of I started to put down little things that, how I could be better.

And then yeah, look at different games and times to see are you actually getting to where you want to get to?

>> H.R. McMaster: It sounds a lot like the advice I would give lieutenants when they take over a combat unit, you've gotta be in charge, right? You gotta take responsibility, but you've got these experienced sergeants around here, you gotta ask for their advice.

And I think when leaders do that, the organization just becomes so much more powerful. And you're also kind of hitting how important it is to learn, to learn from failure in this case what you regarded as failure in the semifinals but there's this old saying about armies, right?

That armies are always ready to fight the last war but I think the opposite is the case. The armies that don't study the last war or do it only superficially, they're set up for failure in the next one. So, can you talk a little bit about how you studied what happened in 2007, how you applied it and went on to a World Cup afterwards.

 

>> Richie McCaw: Well, the biggest regret that I just can't understand why we didn't is after 2007, we said, well, we need to learn the lessons but we had a lesson in 2003. We had a lesson from the team in 99, the two previous had been failures as well and we hadn't even bothered looking at it because that was some other team.

I was part of that team and the All Blacks, but you look at that now and go, how stupid. But it's sort of, you move on and you sort of go, well, it won't happen again until it does. But because I guess I was lucky to still be in the role as captain our coaches were still there.

We had no choice but to address that and the thing was, we spent a lot of time in that next period thinking about how we could ensure we had the tools and the attitudes and the right mentality to deal with those big situations again. But until you actually ended, you don't know whether you're gonna handle it or not and it was sort of one of those ones where I think we were better but what are the lessons that have we actually learned it?

And until you sort of get tested like we did in 2011, we weren't gonna know. And I don't know it's a good thing and a bad thing. Well, it was probably a bad thing for people watching in 2011, the final, and it came down to one point but in some ways, I was so glad that we actually got to find out whether we had the middle to handle when it could easily have fallen to pieces again.

 

>> H.R. McMaster: Yeah, absolutely, so we're talking about really learning from failure and being honest with each other, setting out a course to achieve the excellence that you wanna achieve and the goals you wanna achieve. But also it's important to guard against complacency, right? I mean, All Blacks are the most winning team in sports, right.

And so how do you guard against that? There's this monograph written years ago called the Albatross of Decisive Victory, and the author was writing about the Israeli Defense Forces between 67 and the 73 war. And the idea that that decisive victory in 67 kind of set them up for some difficulties in 73 because they kind of let their guard down.

They become a little complacent but when I look at documentaries about, like Steve Hansen as coach and everything, I hear him talking all the time about complacency and guarding against it. What did you do to continue winning after you had already had some tremendous successes?

>> Richie McCaw: I think we were helped in some ways that we drew upon the history of the All Blacks through 100 years.

That's every week, the expectation was that you were successful just because you had a big win in a tournament or had won a trophy, that the next week, if it didn't mean as much. We had that as a starting point, but we had to really drive it and I think that it's easy, when you have had a loss or a disappointment, to dig really deep and address all those little things that didn't go well and be really honest.

But it's when you maybe have those similar things, but you have a win on the weekend, how do you really dig into. And I think Steve Hanson certainly and Graham Henry was the same, is that when you're feeling pretty good on a Monday after a good performance, actually they set the tone of going, actually put the result to the side.

If we didn't know what the score was, here's some things that we aren't that good at. And I think what we also did was went beyond just the scoreboard. So yeah, we want the scoreboard to take care of itself, but it's the level of performance that we wanted to get better at.

And whether you're saying it's the perfect game or the dominance that just no one, no matter how good they turn up, they just can't live with you. That to me was, it was something that is there every week. And then I think it evolved in the, after we'd won the World Cup in 2011, it would have been easy to have had a subconscious, complacent sort of feeling.

I will have ticked that box and, but like the example you use, you sort of cruise through and go, well, I'm hoping that it might happen again. Whereas we actually, and to be fair, the four years I had as a leader after what had happened, it was pretty draining in terms of the energy and emotion and everything went into making sure we could get some success.

The thought of actually doing that again was a big weight on the shoulders. And I remember sitting down with a guy who was helping us and he said, and I said, I don't know if I can do it the same again. And he said, what are you trying to do like that?

I said, well, I'm quite keen to win. He goes, but this is a completely different scenario, this is doing something no one's done before. No teams won back to back World Cups, no captains won back to back, this is going into uncharted territory. And all of a sudden I was sitting forward on my seat going, man, this is a great opportunity.

How exciting to have a crack at this. And what this is gonna mean to every game that you got to play had something writing on it and as you started to go, teams wanted to knock you off even more and then that became even more. You didn't wanna give away a scalp.

I think that started to become self fulfilling. You didn't want to let your guard down. I do believe it's the toughest thing in sport to back up a great performance with another great performance. No matter how much you tell your conscious brain, we need to go back and reset and go through the.

It's the subconscious. You've gotta get right and gotta figure out ways of not just turning up on Saturday and hoping that it's gonna be okay. Actually knowing we've got. Even if you haven't quite got the emotion that might have been there the week before, you can still go and have that cold blooded desire to just nail your job, no matter the situation.

And that's some of the language we tried to use to ensure that complacency didn't come in. And the last thing I'd say in training, we'd get the guys that weren't playing, obviously wanted to play, to get stuck into the guys that were playing. And get a bit of niggle going there just to say, hey, you're gonna get this on Saturday.

If you're not prepared for it, then look out.

>> H.R. McMaster: Right, absolutely. Yeah, number 16 is ready to come in, man.

>> Richie McCaw: Yeah, you'll be careful you didn't overdo it, but just a little jab every now and again wasn't such a bad thing.

>> H.R. McMaster: Hey, so you did it, you won 97 of 110 matches when you were captain, right?

And one of the things Richie bugs me these days is I hear people talking about, winning is not important. I mean, I even hear people say that about war, I've heard this new phrase creep in, responsible end. What the hell is that? Is what I think. I mean, responsible end means you're gonna get your ass kicked, right, if you don't go into a match wanting to win.

Any thoughts on that? About a winning culture and the degree to which, that that's just important to the mentality that leads to victory.

>> Richie McCaw: Well, I think as soon as you're not there to win, you've got an excuse. If it doesn't go well, and if you've got an excuse sitting there or a way of saying, well, I can justify not winning, I think you set yourself up.

One of the things about rugby that I think's unique is that you can have a great challenge with the opposition on the field, but it's. The values and how it's done are important. And one of the things in New Zealand that's hugely important to the All Blacks and New Zealand rugby is you can strive for absolute excellence, but do it with humility.

And the humbleness that you respect the game and you respect the people you play against it doesn't mean you don't wanna go and cause as much damage as you can when the ball's in play, but afterwards you can shake hands. And often people would say, how do you get both?

I think that's possible and I think rugby sets it up. But also that's one of the things that's hugely important in New Zealand. But you don't wanna confuse that humility and that doesn't come filter into striving for absolute excellence every single time. And you'll do anything you can for the team to be successful.

But I think that's gotta be lead from the top. And I always said that especially for the All Blacks, we can't afford for our place in the world and to be successful in the long term, to accept losing at all. It doesn't mean to say we won't lose the odd one, that's reality.

But the moment we say that it's okay and that we don't, and we make it, that, well, we'll get next week, we're in trouble. And it's a bit like you make a mistake, they do happen. But if you make acceptable and okay, then mistakes will just start compounding.

Whereas if we address the problems that have of why we've had a poor result or made mistakes, you're always gonna keep striving. So it's a long winded way of answering your question. But that's why we do, we compete as we wanna win. And that's the bit that drove me.

But I think on top of that, it wasn't just the score, it was how we did it and the dominance of being able to do it every time. Like consistency was one of the big things, certainly from a personal point of view, is I didn't need to be 100 out of 100 every single time I tried to be.

But as long as my performance never dropped below what I thought was a label that needed to be, to be a great all Black, that's what I tried to turn up and do every single week. And I think if people were with that sort of attitude, then you can sustained success.

 

>> H.R. McMaster: Richie, you mentioned already lessons society can learn from rugby. I mean, I'm a true believer in this, right? You mentioned already the degree to which humility, the professional ethic that's around rugby, the sports ethic that's around rugby of professionalism. And courtesy to the other team, even though they might have taken a few cheap shots during the match.

There might have been some acrimony on the pitch afterwards everybody's okay. And when I look at our society today, a couple of things I think we can learn from rugby. One of them is, how about this, just idea of humility and mutual respect, right? Our politics, I don't know if you're paying attention, what's going on in our country, man, but I'm telling you, our politics are crazy vitriolic and everybody Goes right into ad hominem attacks.

But then also, there's this tendency these days to tell our young people, the system's against you, and it's kind of robbed them of agency over their future. So I think that what the story of the All Blacks and rugby teaches people is, hey, you can control your future by a commitment to excellence, a commitment to one another.

But what thoughts do you have on what society can learn from rugby?

>> Richie McCaw: I think one of the things, as I mentioned earlier, that you can't be successful in a rugby team without needing to build a team and trust amongst people. And then having a shared goal or a thing that you buy into is quite powerful.

And what it teaches you is there's nothing wrong with wanting to be good at it. I get frustrated when people say, don't dream about doing that, that's impossible, you're getting ahead of yourself. But I say, why not? If you never dream of something or want to get somewhere, you're never gonna get there.

You still might not, even though you do, but give yourself a chance. And I think one of the things that when you're in an environment like I was lucky enough to be through professional rugby, but also the games, you learn how to work with people. And then you start to see things that may not have been possible.

You have a team that you go out and do better than what was perhaps expected, and those sort of things compound. But you can do it in a way, as I say, the values of a team sport and the values of rugby are, I think, hugely helpful for people, how they fit in.

And whether you end up in a working environment, you gotta work in a team, you understand different people. And the other thing I would say is, especially here in New Zealand, is rugby, especially in the All Blacks and our professional teams, are made up of people from all sorts of backgrounds and cultures.

And seeing that as a real positive, how you get the best out of people when they all buy into something that we all want, can be successful. Whereas in society at the moment, everyone's sort of got their own little bit and.

>> H.R. McMaster: Well, no identity category, right? Everybody wants to have a specific identity category or something.

It's crazy, yeah.

>> Richie McCaw: One of the good things about the All Blacks, for example, is we had people with a background. So European, Maldi, Pacific Island, all sorts, but we're all bound together by being New Zealanders and we wanted to represent New Zealand. And so you put aside or you bring your positive attributes that come with your upbringing or your set of values, but they're all molded in together about being a New Zealander and representing the All Blacks.

And to me that's hugely powerful, that a sense of identity that's beyond yourself, whereas if it'd be easy just to sit in your own little group and go, well, the world's against me on this, or I'm getting an unfair deal here. And that's all you hear through news media now is everything that's going wrong, rather than actually some of the things that are going right.

And I can see how people get quite despondent.

>> H.R. McMaster: Well, there's this tendency these days to try to wanna categorize people based on this identity category instead of, hey, what's in their hearts, what's in their soul? Are they tough? Are they courageous? Are they fit to be a member of the team?

But also to recognize our common humanity. And would you mind talking a little bit about the ritual of the haka? I think that we all have rituals in our societies, right? And I think America's been pretty good at helping all of us as citizens understand our common identity as Americans.

And really, the great gifts and opportunities we have in this country. Now, that doesn't mean everybody has complete equality of opportunity, right? We've gotta work on that, there are things to work on. But I think that these rituals that celebrate our common humanity, our common identity as New Zealanders, as Americans, as a member of the All Blacks team, are important.

But would you mind talking about maybe even the debate around the haka, and then how all of you came to the conclusion that this is an important element of your culture?

>> Richie McCaw: So for your listeners that don't know the haka, it's a Maori native people in New Zealand.

It's something that they used to do before battle or as a ceremonial expression of who they are as a people. And back in the early days, 1905, when the original All Blacks had traveled, they had some Maori players there that obviously thought the haka was something that was done all the way through.

And growing up in New Zealand, when we go to school, all the first fifteens all have their own hakas, and we do it to each other. It's something that's quite ingrained into New Zealand's society and culture. So with the All Blacks, before each game, we perform it. And there was a period where I guess the understanding for a lot of us that didn't have a Maori background, you sort of go, I don't kinda understand as well as I should.

And so we put time into it because you go, well, I haven't got a Maori background, what should I feel around it? But where we got to is it's a symbol of who we are as New Zealanders, which is represented by the native Maori people. And it's a bit like people stand up and sing the national anthem before a game.

There's a huge amount of passion and pride of who you're representing. The haka is very similar to that, it's something that's unique to New Zealand. But it's an expression of who we are as, I guess, quite a diverse society here in New Zealand that is bound together as New Zealanders.

And that's an expression to show people who we are. And from a sporting context, we also said it's a statement to say we're ready for what's ahead, which is the game of rugby. And people would say or often gets criticized that we get an unfair advantage cuz you get to stare down the opposition and perform the haka, but I guess we didn't really look at it like that.

It was more just a statement to say, we're ready to play. And the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. It makes you sort of reflect on the pride you have of standing here with the black jersey on, who you're representing, and knowing that you've got 5 million New Zealanders all by and large wanna see their team be successful.

And we're about to get the chance to hopefully put a performance together that they're proud of.

>> H.R. McMaster: Well, you know what? It does it for me, man, it gets me fired up every time I see you guys do the haka.

>> Richie McCaw: Yeah.

>> H.R. McMaster: My old team, we used to stand shoulder to shoulder and sing The Wild Rover.

But when we all went in together, Brothers on Three. So West Point Rugby also uses the Brothers breakdown before the match, which I think that goes to Shakespeare's play Henry V. When he talks right before the battle of, I think it was the Battle of Agincourt, when he's describing, we band of brothers, and he who sheds his blood with me today will forever be my brother.

And then he goes on to say I don't care what your title is, I don't care what your station is, we're all in this together. So I do think that's a big lesson for society these days, but also, how about this? The whole culture of having a pint afterwards, after a match coming together, what other lessons do you think there are for society today when we see?

Everybody seems to either want to be a victim or they want to be incensed or angry about something? I just wanna tell everybody, hey, lighten up, man, get over it, let's work together, what else do you think rugby can teach us, Richie?

>> Richie McCaw: One of the things we talked about the values of the game up until, certainly through the amateur era after, especially after test matches.

And same with provincial rugby in New Zealand and club rugby afterwards, after you've had 80 minutes of battling against each other, then you go and sit down with the opposition team and share a drink. Used to be have a test match dinner, professional rugby changed things a little bit.

But I know my time certainly we, and I talked with a lot of the other captains around the world about after every game and we played at night often, so it was limited time. But after each game, the home team, win or lose, would invite the opposition into their changing room to share a drink.

And you could have, as you say, could have gone and all sorts of things happened out in the field that you sort of would easily to hold grudges or. But it was sort of, you leave that out there and then you go and respect people for who they are, they're doing their bit for their team, we're doing our bit for our team.

But, you're bound together by the values and the, I guess, the traditions of rugby. Which, when you break that down, you realize that the people standing there, opposition's jersey have a very similar outlook to the way you do when you get a chance to talk. They are passionate about the game, they're passionate about their country and they wanna go and be successful and it's the same and you gotta respect that and admire that.

But to be able to put all that aside and just share a drink, that's something that I really, really enjoyed. And the other thing is only those guys in your team and the guys you played against know what it was like out in the arena. They know what it was like, how it felt, what the noise was like, all those sort of things, and that's what you share, which is in common.

And I think those values, and if you put that to society, we can have debates about things or disagreements or, have a different opinion. But at the end of the day, you can put that to the side and treat people as humans and have a respect for their position and you don't need to agree, but actually look at things.

Yeah, look at people as people, not as, because they think that or they have those sort of things. And I think rugby can teach us a lot about those type of values, I think.

>> H.R. McMaster: Yeah, I think the words are coming to mind we've talked about today, or trust, certainly humility.

And I think we were talking about is empathy, too, and so I just think that you've helped us really understand the implications of the sport of rugby for society. What we can learn, I also recommend the book, Legacy, Kerr's book, Legacy, where he's got essentially, what he sees as the central elements of success of the All Blacks and how they relate to what he calls the business of life.

But, hey, I wanna change topics a little bit and just talk about Rugby World Cup Paris 2023, any predictions, how do you see it going into the tournament here?

>> Richie McCaw: Well, from a New Zealand point of view, I thought we were traveling along pretty well. Where do we hiccup with the warm up game against Springboks in England, but hard to read too much into these sort of games to get teams ready.

But I've been saying for a while, there'll be probably half a dozen teams all sitting there leading into the World Cup going. We've got an opportunity to potentially win, and there's probably another few teams that have got the ability to knock over anyone on their day. And so that makes it pretty open.

 

>> H.R. McMaster: Do you wanna name them? I'm thinking Ireland, France, South Africa, I mean?

>> Richie McCaw: Ireland, France, South Africa, New Zealand, and then the teams that, England haven't had a great warm up, but they've got the ability to knock someone over. The Welsh and the Scottish, they've all got the ability, and they've just seen the Fijians beat England.

There's some mix, All Blacks playing and Australians playing for the Pacific Islanders. So all those, you put those teams, they've all got the ability to knock someone over. They may not win three big games in a row, but, if they have their day in a quarterfinal,

>> H.R. McMaster: Do we mention Argentina, they're always tough?

 

>> Richie McCaw: No, but they're in there, too, yeah. So, but just seeing the French over the last couple of years and they obviously had a big win against Australia in a warm up game. And they all got to play them first round, that's a massive indicator, I think, as to where they're at, but, I don't know.

Funny things have happened, we were favorites in 2007 and we didn't get past the quarter final stage. We'd kind of say you can't get to, what's gone even a few weeks before it's so hard to understand. You've gotta, I don't know whether it's luck, but, you've gotta deal with injuries, you gotta deal with things that don't go your way.

The draw might pan out one way or the other, you've just gotta deal with all those things. All the teams have it, so it's, who can manage all that the best, and produce three performances in a row and you talk about complacency. You can have a massive performance, and get through a game, maybe a quarterfinal to repeat it next week.

That becomes, even though you go, it's a semi final or a final, it's really hard to get that right. So, the teams that have got a bit of an understanding of that will be in with it, yeah, a really good sniff, I think.

>> H.R. McMaster: If you want my predictions, I'm hoping that the first game, the French All Black game, might end up being the final.

It could be, I mean, the way the brackets are, that could happen, wow.

>> Richie McCaw: It could, you look at the quarterfinals, the All Blacks could potentially, provided they make the quarterfinals, will play against Savica or Ireland, and the French will play the other San Francisco island. They're gonna be massive games, which makes it exciting.

 

>> H.R. McMaster: Well, I'll be there for the bronze match in the finals, so hopefully I'll see you there. And I'm going with some of my old rugby teammates, which will be a blast, and all of our wives, it'll be fun. I also wanna get your advice for USA rugby and the Eagles, didn't qualify this year, which was heartbreaking for me.

But, rugby World Cup is gonna be in the United States in 2031, and I think it's a sport that should grow, it's just a great sport. You don't need all this equipment, I think you have fewer head injuries although all of us have had head injuries. But I think if you employ the proper techniques, it's less dangerous than American Football, for example.

All you need is a mouthpiece and a set of boots, and I think it's a sport that should be played everywhere. So what advice do you have for the US? How do we get everybody to catch rugby fever? And what advice do you have for USA Rugby?

>> Richie McCaw: Everyone talks about it like America is a sleeping giant or could potentially be, the people, the Americans with the NFL, they love the contact sport and rugby, I think fits right in with the psyche of what how American people look at their sport.

I do believe the World Cup will unleash some, especially I think about kids wanting to play. And if all of a sudden, they, instead of potentially growing up wanting to play in the NFL. And then rugby, sort of something that comes along later, actually grow up wanting to play rugby, that's when you would start to really get that ingrained, the way I see it.

But there's more rugby players in America than there are in New Zealand by quite a long way. So, you sort of get that organized into, as I say, you get the pathway of kids wanting to that's when I think you really start to get it right. But I don't know, a big country, a big population, how you get that together, whether you start in small areas and grow it or, I don't know, you probably know more than I did about that.

But as I say, the 2031, when there's a World Cup coming, the resource and the attention and all you think about. Even sponsors wanting to be involved, all those sorts of things, maybe that's a way of starting.

>> H.R. McMaster: The women's program's ahead of the men, so hopefully that will give him some sense of to heal.

 

>> Richie McCaw: The Women's World Cup's the following year, isn't it? 32, isn't it? Or 33?

>> H.R. McMaster: Yeah, that's right, absolutely, hey, so any final words for our viewers? Richie, this has been a great, great discussion, thanks for joining us, but anything else you'd like to say?

>> Richie McCaw: Well, the thing I look back on the game of rugby, I wondered when I finished playing, what I'm gonna do next.

And whether it be in business, whatever, and you wonder what skills or things you take out of rugby, but the lessons that you learn for life around being a part of a team. And I guess the leadership side is hugely grateful for, and I just was privileged to have a chance to do that.

And I just love chatting with people like yourself, love these sorts of conversations, chatting about the game of rugby and how it could potentially have an impact on society in general. I know it has a big impact in our country and, yeah, hopefully it still be worldwide in years to come.

 

>> H.R. McMaster: Well, Richie, thanks a lot, I mean, on behalf of the Hoover Institution, thanks for helping us understand how the game of rugby and your experiences can help us work together to build a better future, great to see you.

>> Richie McCaw: Thank you, I appreciate the time.

>> Jenn Henry: Battlegrounds is a production of the Hoover Institution, where we generate and promote ideas advancing freedom.

For more information about our work, to hear more of our podcasts or view our video content, please visit hoover.org.